39 points by margotli 6 hours ago | 88 comments
lrvick 5 hours ago
This has very little to do with location or genetics and everything to do with education and culture.
spacemadness 11 minutes ago
marcandre 5 hours ago
magicalhippo 2 hours ago
When I visited New York a few years ago I was shocked about how much smoking there was everywhere.
Of course, people didn't quit nicotine entirely, many moving to snus[1] instead.
throwaway290 5 hours ago
andrepd 5 hours ago
Every one of those points is also true in Europe (apart from possibly healthcare), unfortunately. Car dependency and car-centric development is almost everywhere, places like the Netherlands are an outlier. Fast food and ads thereof are also everywhere. Many people smoke. Etc.
arp242 4 hours ago
It's the degree of things. I live in Ireland, in a village of a few thousand people a few km outside the city, what you might call a "suburb" in the US. I don't even have a driver's license. It's rarely an issue and can go about my life by foot. bike, and public transport.
disgruntledphd2 3 hours ago
You are a very unusual person then, as the vast vast majority of people in not urban core Ireland have (and use) a car. I live in a Dublin suburb, and we're one of the few married couples that don't have two cars.
arp242 5 minutes ago
In the US on the other hand, it's needed a lot more.
insane_dreamer 36 minutes ago
There's almost no way to survive in the US without a vehicle, except in a few cities (mostly NYC). You can do without a car in many European cities.
I never owned a car until I moved to the US ~10 years ago.
throw0101c 4 hours ago
Whatever villages that used to exist in the US have been drowned out by car-centric suburbs that were build around them. The 'village' is now the downtown-ish area of the community that tourists go see.
insane_dreamer 38 minutes ago
Not anywhere near US levels. Netherlands isn't an outlier. You can get pretty much anywhere in Switzerland with good public transport. Denmark, Germany, Austria, Northern Italy, France, Belgium, all have excellent public transportation networks with wide coverage.
> Many people smoke.
This is the one "healthy living" area where Europe lags the US. But many people in the US vape and I'm not sure it's any healthier.
throwaway290 5 hours ago
danaris 3 hours ago
I live in a rural village about 5 hours' drive from NYC. There is no public transport here.
If I drive 45 minutes to the nearest city, I can catch a train—but that train will only take me to a few destinations (primarily Albany, NYC, or Boston one way, or Buffalo, Chicago and points west the other way).
Some cities (outside of major metropolitan areas, which do generally have some kind of rail system) have intracity buses, but they tend to be underfunded and dirty.
throwaway290 52 minutes ago
pm90 5 hours ago
ne0flex 5 hours ago
FirmwareBurner 5 hours ago
cbg0 5 hours ago
danaris 3 hours ago
A lot of Eastern Europe was doing very poorly a generation or two ago, and we know that living through a period of hunger will cause your children to be more likely to gain weight.
diggan 5 hours ago
Sometimes my wife convince me to try American candy/foods that we buy in these "foreign foods stores" locally, because she grew up eating some of them in her country.
And every time we check the contents by reading the nutrition-labels or checking with apps like Yuka, it turns out that the stuff Americans put in the mouth and stomach are filled with stuff that is outright illegal to put in foods here in Europe.
So if I were to guess, it would be related to what is legal to put in foods/consumables.
jedimastert 5 hours ago
https://impact.economist.com/sustainability/project/food-sec...
Chris2048 5 hours ago
It sometimes is annyoying though, especially around foods and medicine when something is not yet approved in Europe e.g. It's really hard to get Allulose (sugar alternative with similar properties benefitting baking); As far as I can tell it's not actually "illegal" in Europe, it's just not approved as a food, so no-one risks importing it..
astura 5 hours ago
diggan 4 hours ago
- Titanium dioxide (E171)
- Potassium bromate
- Azodicarbonamide
- Propylparaben
I'm sure there is more, and there is probably also stuff that is banned in the US but not in Europe.
fredley 5 hours ago
Therefore, things like public smoking bans (as we have in the UK) as well as public health campaigns around alcohol consumption and healthy eating become palatable. Regulating harmful foodstuffs becomes more important. The cost of smokers' adverse health was (and still is) enormous, and reducing that burden benefits everyone.
andrepd 5 hours ago
The true issue is secondhand smoke. That for me is what it all is about: preventing unwilling people from being exposed to smoke, full stop.
About as many people die from smoking than from secondhand smoke. Think for a minute how horrifying that is.
fredley 5 hours ago
This is often mentioned, but it's simply not true. It's not old age itself that costs money, it's the part of your life where you need care and support. This is old age in otherwise healthy people, but smokers don't just drop dead one day, they go through as many if not more years of care and support as everyone else, they just do it younger (which costs in lost productive years too).
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cost-of-smoking-t...
wk_end 3 hours ago
There’s been a number of studies on this, and they do seem to suggest that overall smoking saves society money. E.g. here’s one from Finland
mog_dev 5 hours ago
Large portion of americans eat like they have free healthcare.
Arnt 3 hours ago
greybox 5 hours ago
What shocked me about the US when I went, was how much peptobismol people chugged down. There was not one meal in my 1 week stay there that I could digest without issue.
sokoloff 5 hours ago
greybox 4 hours ago
danaris 3 hours ago
sega_sai 5 hours ago
My understanding for Scotland/England it is a question of alcohol/drugs to some degree. I suspect it is similar for the comparison to US.
londons_explore 5 hours ago
That means poorer countries tend to have worse healthcare, and less good outcomes.
mrtksn 5 hours ago
It’s much more than money.
usaar333 5 hours ago
https://publichealth.jhu.edu/2024/americans-die-younger-than...
hiAndrewQuinn 5 hours ago
Obesity is primarily caused by the 1-2000 micro-decisions we make each year about what to eat, when, and how much. A free visit to the doctor now and then is just not going to move the needle much on that one way or another for most people, most of the time. Even if it could we have to ask why a $0 doctor visit would be so much more effective than a $100 doctor visit.
No, the effects you're seeing what Europeans are more fit than Americans on average is coming from somewhere else. I think the real answer is the obvious one: Food here in Europe is simply worse tasting than in the US in general. I've been here for 5 years across twice as many countries; I've never had a pizza here that even matches Little Caesar's back at home, in terms of lighting up my little monkey neurons, to say nothing of Costco. If I ever go back home I will break and get one of the two within a week of reaching the airport.
Capitalism is an optimization process that has optimized the heck out of food reward signal. Your only real options are either to be poor enough that capitalism doesn't care about getting you the 'good stuff' - easier said than done when being poor sucks, and when the good stuff is constantly getting cheaper over time anyway - or you fight back with even harder optimization in the reverse direction. You could argue Europe is some mixture of both compared to the US.
throwaway290 4 hours ago
hiAndrewQuinn 4 hours ago
throwaway290 4 hours ago
Imagine the government pays for healthcare. The government can pass laws. What is cheaper for gov, to pass laws or to pay for healthcare. Of course they prefer to pass laws which regulate unhealthy stuff and run promotions to get people be healthy. Regular people cannot do this.
hiAndrewQuinn 2 hours ago
If the government isn't paying for your healthcare, then you have to pay it yourself. If you are fat, statistically, you will probably end up paying a lot more over time. This is not "wasted" money - no money you spend on your health is totally wasted. The good news is, you personally benefit from this money more than anyone else who could possibly spend it on your behalf - you reap the health benefits, the extra Christmases with the family, the bigger smiles from strangers.
Now how much does being fat cost over a lifetime? Frequently in the range of tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's pure medical costs, before we even consider how much the intangibles are worth.
The thing is: Most people understand this. If you understand this, and are still fat, then on some level you are indeed saying that the money isn't worth the trade-off of changing your whole lifestyle to (a) fix this and then (b) ensure you don't end up there again.
To me that's proof that being fat is a very hard thing to change just by throwing money at it. The literal best, most incentivized person, the fat person themselves, can't even figure out how to change it, not even with at minimum tens of thousands of dollars on the line. There are probably government interventions that probably could move the needle at scale, but they are probably not "let's subsidize spinach farmers" or whatever, because an extra $2 per week for spinach is just not that much money compared to even a single $50,000 gastric bypass. They probably look more like "If your BMI drifts above 27 we send you to weight loss prison and you can come out when you're below 22 again", which sounds insane, because it is. It is simply a very hard problem to solve by throwing money at it.
throwaway290 51 minutes ago
I mean a government that already chose to implement free healthcare. THEN it is cheaper for them to keep people healthy.
Of course it would be cheapest to not care at all. But if you already locked into caring then it is cheaper to prevent than to treat
hiAndrewQuinn 35 minutes ago
throwaway290 22 minutes ago
> government can choose to stop implementing universal healthcare, just like it can choose to implement it.
FYI in a democracy it doesn't really work like that
trainerxr50 4 hours ago
All the baby boomer men in my family would be dead if it wasn't for the American health care system.
Even suffering heart attacks, they didn't miss a beat to get back to going out to eat, drinking beer/wine and being massively overweight.
If you go to any restaurant at night it will be packed with fat old people stuffing their face. Most on medications so that they don't have to change their lifestyle.
No country has ever had the BMI of old people that America has right now. It is a wealth curse.
petesergeant 5 hours ago
https://www.nationhoodlab.org/the-regional-geography-of-u-s-...
sokoloff 5 hours ago
GlibMonkeyDeath 4 hours ago
In 1990, there was no difference in life expectancy between wealthy white Americans and comparably wealthy Europeans (Fig 3 in the first link) Since then a gap has opened up among all levels of income (even the wealthiest white Americans now have lower life expectancy than comparably wealthy Europeans.) The second link looks at the biggest death causes (heart disease and cancer being #1 and #2) and conclude Americans have worse outcomes for both of these conditions.
Basically, Europe continued to improve while America stagnated in life expectancy over this time.
Interestingly, even in 1990, comparably poor Europeans had longer life expectancy than white Americans. So this isn't exactly new, but it seems all of American life expectancy has been stagnating, and wealth can only mitigate this to a certain degree.
thenoblesunfish 5 hours ago
I think the proximal answers for "why" are in the World Health Report, which tells you why people die.https://www.who.int/data/gho/publications/world-health-stati...
Some of those you'd assume are to do with health care in general, but some (alcohol and tobacco consumption) are more like direct causes in and of themselves.
insane_dreamer 40 minutes ago
The US can claim "#1" status in 3 areas only:
- a large number of top-class research universities (other countries have these two but in much much smaller number)
- the most dominant military-industrial complex
- deregulated pro-business environment that is a good place to make a fortune if you're talented & lucky, or know how to bullshit investors
potato3732842 5 hours ago
Take the absolute value and the numbers and you get an ok map of how likely someone is to be trying to mislead you if they're comparing all of the US to just this one nation.
You could make a pretty similar map with US states vs US average.
Correlation is a hell of a drug[1].
fluidcruft 5 hours ago
keiferski 5 hours ago
viraptor 5 hours ago
Archelaos 4 hours ago
A clear East vs. West and to a lesser extent North vs. South difference is obvious. In Western Germany, most region with very low life expectancy are those regions that were under strong economic pressure in recent decades (usually former mining areas, such as the Ruhr Area and the Saarland).
Here is a 2020 map of life expectancy: https://www.demogr.mpg.de/media/13419_main.png
And here a 2019 map of household income: https://www.wsi.de/de/einkommen-14582-einkommen-im-regionale...
Differences is smoking might also have an important impact. Here is a 2013 map: https://bilder.deutschlandfunk.de/FI/LE/_f/47/FILE_f4790b165...
This seems to imply an even closer correlation.
Of course, correlation does not imply direct causation. The underlying causalities might be various, complex and different from region to region.
FirmwareBurner 5 hours ago
So I expect the picture of future retirees will look very different between countries with growing economies and the ones with declining/stagnating economies.
anonnon 4 hours ago
davedx 5 hours ago
surgical_fire 5 hours ago
Those are basically all in yellow on that map.
agubelu 5 hours ago
diggan 5 hours ago
So I guess the positive ones are the "democratic socialist" countries?
keiferski 5 hours ago
CalRobert 5 hours ago
dobladov 5 hours ago
keiferski 5 hours ago
That said, those are two micro states, so I’m not sure how applicable they are to larger countries. Switzerland isn’t huge but it also isn’t tiny.
dobladov 5 hours ago
Microstates seem to do great, I also missed Monaco with a +7.1, Andorra is between France and Spain with a +4.7
eertami 5 hours ago
motorest 4 hours ago
> Social democracy and democratic socialism are related but distinct political ideologies. Social democracy, often associated with the Nordic model, focuses on regulating capitalism to create a strong welfare state and reduce inequality through social programs, while generally supporting a mixed economy with private ownership. Democratic socialism, on the other hand, envisions a more fundamental transformation of the economic system, often including greater public or worker ownership and economic democracy, while also emphasizing democratic principles.
All countries in West Europe implement social democracies. They greatly outperform the US.
Countries in Eastern Europe are still enduring their legacy of communism/democratic socialism, but 30 years ago they experienced a radical swing towards the blend of neoliberalismo professed by the US.
Lastly, you look at data showing how the US greatly underperforms in key quality of life metrics, and the conclusion you opt to extract is cherry-pick those to look down on? That's tragic.
4 hours ago
anovikov 6 hours ago
pm90 5 hours ago
CalRobert 5 hours ago
modo_mario 5 hours ago
lgeorget 5 hours ago
ben_w 5 hours ago
Probably loads of other differences too.
viraptor 5 hours ago
bboozzoo 5 hours ago
hopelite 5 hours ago
It has always baffled me a bit that Europeans keep making this basic type error, by comparing individual European countries that were relatively cohesive and healthy until recently, to the whole of the USA that suffers from a whole host of benefits of diversity. Europeans simply have no understanding of the real America beyond what they see in movies or hear on Reddit. How could they, most people in America don’t even have a clue what America really is like due to endless barrages of propaganda from childhood on.
JohnKemeny 5 hours ago
Isn't USA a country? How is a country-by-country comparison "typical Reddit ignorance"?
I'm gonna use my typical Reddit ignorance to guess you are indeed from the USA.
potato3732842 5 hours ago
Your access to booze, cigs and healthcare is very different in NM than it is in MA.
agubelu 2 hours ago
jcims 2 hours ago
viraptor 5 hours ago
The first one doesn't include a few European countries. The second is completely backwards - health generally has been on the way up across the board for decades.
potato3732842 5 hours ago
speedgoose 5 hours ago
johnisgood 5 hours ago