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The average workday increased during the pandemic’s early weeks (2020)

112 points by robtherobber 17 hours ago | 108 comments

PaulRobinson 12 hours ago

I do not believe that people are more productive after about 4-5 hours a day of work.

The fact that the productivity metric used here is emails sent kind of proves my point: I send emails when I'm worn out with real work.

I've seen real teams cut hours and get more productive, so if the workday is extending that should be a red flag to employers: productivity is going down, and they need to push back on it.

If somebody runs a team or an org here and wants to A/B test it, I'd love to see the results. My anecdata is historical and not properly tested.

isk517 10 hours ago

Unfortunately all I can offer is another 2nd hand story I saw posted recently on some social media site or message board. It was a person complaining about how they were being passed up for promotion and not receiving praise from management like their more lazy coworkers despite working 12+ hours a day plus putting in time on the weekends. They were baffled by the fact that once they said 'screw it' and started only putting in the time expected of them that their work started being praised by management. The replies were pretty universal in the opinion that once the person stopped burning themselves out by working all the time they then started producing work that was better than merely acceptable.

yodsanklai 11 hours ago

> I do not believe that people are more productive after about 4-5 hours a day of work.

You may be less productive after 5 hours of work, but even if your output 50% less in the next 5 hours, you'll still produce more by working more.

Employers don't care about productivity, they care about your total output. And it's not only employers, if you want to improve or pass a selective test or anything, you have to put the hours.

There may be some threshold where more work becomes detrimental, but it's definitely not 5 hours.

BriggyDwiggs42 10 hours ago

You can in many cases run multiple shifts if you need the same hours of output.

>its definitely not five hours

Why are you so sure?

yodsanklai 10 hours ago

Because I've seen it with my own eyes on multiple occasions. Students studying for selective examinations (medicine, law, maths) routinely work more than 10 hours a day. I've also seen closely very successful academics who worked a lot.

And frankly, 5 hours a day isn't that much. It's perfectly fine is some people wants work life balance, but you will do more by working more, and if you're ambitious, it's hard to avoid putting the hours at some critical moments in your life.

ijk 10 hours ago

Students are typically young, and make up for their lack of experience with the energy to work longer. Not necessarily more productively--I've certainly seen people with very counter-productive intense study habits that didn't seem to help them much.

Long, sustained hours are more of a problem; in the US we routinely overwork doctors to the point of risking deadly error--in part because the standards of long hours during residencies were developed by William Stewart Halsted, a cocaine addict who worked 100+ hours per week.

const_cast 1 hour ago

> Students studying for selective examinations (medicine, law, maths) routinely work more than 10 hours a day.

Yes, for a little bit. But one thing I've consistently noticed is they're operating on borrowed time. Once the exam passes and the semester is over, they go into full burn-out mode. Now they're not even doing their laundry, let alone studying medicine.

Human productivity is incredibly fickle. We can be pushed really, really far, but we have to pay an immense debt.

SketchySeaBeast 10 hours ago

Studying for an exam is a short term, intense, focus with a defined end date. Once the exam is over it's over you get your reward, you rest, and then you're on to something new. It's not comparable to the decades long treadmill that is a career.

oceanplexian 8 hours ago

Not sure why medicine has such a cult of personality around it, people in that field are glorified flowchart operators.

Doctors can pull a 10 hour shift for the same reason a call center worker can do the same thing. They aren’t doing deep knowledge work. The people actually doing the knowledge work are at research universities setting up controlled trials, running simulations, and putting out papers.

vasusen 10 hours ago

It really depends on the work. I used to run a large product-engineering org and I saw that slack-engagement correlated very closely with how well PMs were doing. That wasn't true for engineers.

closeparen 10 hours ago

Those 4-5 productive hours start for me after 6-8 hours riddled with Zoom calls, if not completely covered in them.

Koshima 13 hours ago

The remote work era exposed a strange paradox: while we saved time on commutes, we often ended up working longer. Maybe it’s because our calendars became too accessible, or perhaps the "out of sight, out of mind" fear kicked in for managers. Either way, the true cost of this shift is still playing out.

stringsandchars 12 hours ago

My work really flourished during WFH. I was actually headhunted back to a place I'd worked before with the (verbal) promise they were now and always would be 'remote first'. During the last 2 years my productivity has exploded. I get up, make myself a coffee, and start working at 6am. Then after a shower and a walk in the forest, I work a full day of intense and focussed work. I've been happy, fit, fulfilled. I've often visited the office and love the social interaction. I've often worked weekends and evening because it's been fun, and I've felt loyalty to the company. Then 8 weeks ago the CEO suddenly announced RTO.

But this has been such a wake-up call. I stopped doing the extra work, no longer respond to questions that are out-of-hours, and have finally realized that the company really isn't my 'friend' or 'family'. But best of all, when I'm at the office I can just coast and do practically no work whatsoever - and not only does no-one notice, I've even been getting more managerial praise for my performance.

We're living in a mad world.

lesser23 11 hours ago

> I stopped doing the extra work, no longer respond to questions that are out-of-hours, and have finally realized that the company really isn't my 'friend' or 'family'. But best of all, when I'm at the office I can just coast and do practically no work whatsoever - and not only does no-one notice, I've even been getting more managerial praise for my performance.

Perhaps I’ve been jaded by the industry after being in it so long but this struck me. I haven’t felt this way about any company, good or bad, in a long time. After surviving probably my 10th layoff across 5 different companies I can’t imagine ever being loyal, considering anyone at a company a “friend”, and most certainly not “family”.

I agree with your feeling that remote has really made me more productive. But I believe that’s because of the opposite of what you stated. I loved the ability to get a bunch of stuff done and then zone out the rest of the day. Without the constant interruptions, open office, etc I was able to get one giant burst of productivity and then check out. I was on paper “10x” and just omitted the fact I was only working 2/3 time.

Recently with RTO and myself being remote only I’ve been led to burnout. The company I am at has changed the merit equation from good work to showing up to the office. As a result, I end up picking up more slack during my workday as my coworkers get lunches, game rooms, parties, etc. I am still expected to grind and they are not. I sure do miss the remote first days.

dughnut 11 hours ago

My employer is tightening the screws. I get it. RTO externalizes costs and privatizes benefit. The incentives are not aligned for remote work, and it’s a publicly traded firm with an obligation to maximize shareholder value. I get it. While middle management should know if line of business employees are actually producing useful work, regardless of location, expecting 40 or 50-somethings to be engaged at work and not spend their day running personal errands is not realistic. So physical presence is the shareholders’ only option.

I see it as a pay cut where commute and prep hours are uncompensated, and I adjust my valuation of the job accordingly.

lolinder 13 hours ago

This may be true for a lot of people, but it's not universal and is readily avoidable. A few tips that have worked for me:

* Don't install any company apps or log in to any company accounts on your phone.

* Set your working hours in your calendar and stick to them.

* Set your Slack status to automatically show you as away and snoozed outside your working hours.

* When you're done with work, shut down your laptop and walk away.

I've never received any complaints from sticking to this pattern. When I'm in my working hours I'm consistently reachable and I do my job, when I'm not you can't get hold of me if you try. This is how it was in the office, I don't see why the expectation should be different in WFH.

I do think that a key thing that makes this work well for me is that I'm consistently online during (and only during) my specified hours, rather than mixing and matching my schedule on a day to day basis. I'm not always reachable, but I'm predictably unreachable.

ljf 12 hours ago

I can't remember where I was reading someone the other day remarking how since they had stopped working extra hours, they had suddenly been promoted, after years of trying.

They now stuck to their hours, got used to saying no, but worked hard while they were 'at work'. Part of the thinking was this moved them out of the group who were always staying on to finish something off, which can make you look ill-prepared or behind - despite the fact that you only there are you are taking on additional work.

tsumnia 12 hours ago

> When you're done with work, shut down your laptop and walk away.

I think this became the driving force of "always at work". When you sit at home all day, you're online. And the inevitable "let me just check..." habit I know I formed starts to occur. At some point its 6 or 7pm as you're playing catch up on work and since its still "early" its fine to respond to that small email or Slack message. Next thing you know its 11 or 12 at night and you're still sitting on the computer browsing or working or doing something in between. The 24/7 chatroom is always open and there's always someone willing to socialize.

distances 12 hours ago

The key is to have different computers, or at a minimum different user accounts. On the work computer no private stuff, on the private computer no work stuff.

Once I've logged out of my work account it has never happened that I'd log back in the same evening, open the VPN, restart the browser etc just for a quick check of emails or chat messages.

tsumnia 10 hours ago

It's a bit challenging in academia, where many of the students send their messages later in the evening. I've made it a habit to not respond after 6pm for that exact reason - if they see I'm "on" then its okay to communicate. However the past year has reminded me about the reasons I started making YouTube videos and whatnot, because I DON'T want to be bothered outside of class and so my students have all the resources available when they choose to work on my course.

Some of this is a 'me' problem, needing to remember to disconnect from the world and all of the literal fires going on. I've been using the hyperbole that essentially my brain "exploded", so I deleted Reddit, been on an unsubscribe phase with my YouTube channels, and joined some smaller communities. That last one still keeps me online, but I look at as smaller community means silly memes and a group of people that eventually clock out for the night.

It's so much more quiet! I missed this.

0cf8612b2e1e 10 hours ago

One key for me is to have a separate desk. My work machine is in its own corner where only work things can happen. The physical separation makes the habit that, “here is where I work” vs “here is where I live”.

distances 10 hours ago

I don't really have space for two separate computer desks. But I enforce the divide with pants: work hours means work pants, the same I'd wear to the office, and after work I "commute home" by changing the pants.

It's a stupid thing but I started doing that at the beginning of the pandemic lockdowns and have kept it up ever since.

Infernal 13 hours ago

I don't think it's a paradox at all. I saved X hours a day by not commuting, and spent maybe .25X to .5X extra hours working (which actually felt pleasant, because I was sleeping in later, getting "home from work" sooner, and taking zero-friction breaks when needed by walking to my kitchen instead of driving to lunch, etc.)

lukashoff 13 hours ago

The WFH shift also exposed the ones who have self discipline and the ones who are not. Nobody is asking you to go beyond the contracted hours. Inability to stop working is a fault of the person and not the mode of working. Agree that the managers fear kicked in so they start to pretend to do work for "visibility". However, that's a sign of a rotten culture and these people were most likely NOT productive in the first place and now they are being exposed therefore they have a need to over-compensate for it.

There are plenty of us who became extremely productive and can finally enjoy life rather than constantly play the spectacle in the office or sit in traffic for hours. And don't get me started on the ones who are neurodiverse or have any kind of disability.

trollbridge 13 hours ago

In a staff or lead level role with Indian team members active at 6 AM ET (and our day officially starting at 8:30 ET so we can interact with them), West and East Coast teams with the West Coast often working 10 AM - 7 PM, yeah, that means I’m going to be reasonably working from 8 AM - 5 PM or 6 PM.

During the WFH era which for me was 2017 - 2022, I made up for the 9 - 10 hour workdays by not using up PTO for doctor appointments, car repair shop trips, and so on. This worked reasonably well - and nobody minded if I was getting my oil changed or sitting for an hour at a doctor’s office lobby and responsive on Slack. It was a compromise that worked reasonably well.

We also carved out time for people to pick up/drop off kids at school. In exchange, the work day expanded from basically 8 to 5 or 9 to 6. Everyone was comfortable with this. I certainly didn’t mind people on my team doing this at all and really appreciated the extra availability - we just knew to plan around the school pick up and drop off times, which were also in the calendar as a recurring meeting.

What’s not working now is imposing RTO and trying to have the same extended hours. Sorry, but no, I’m not going to drive in from 7-8, work from 8-6 without breaks, and then drive home from 6-7.

ChrisMarshallNY 13 hours ago

Seems that was an unpopular comment, but it's basically correct.

Overwork can be corrosive to productivity and quality, but that can happen in-office, as much as at home.

But also, working at home does require self-discipline, and not everyone is able to do that. It's also like being a manager, or a company owner. These require a certain type of personality/skillset, and not everyone has it. There's a good possibility that we need external structure. I know folks who rented a desk in a local incubator, during COVID, because they needed the time away from home.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Some of the most materially successful people in history, have been right bastards, in life. There's a lot to be said for a healthy work/life balance.

As far as neurodiverse folks; some of them can do very well at home.

willismichael 13 hours ago

    And don't get me started on the ones who are neurodiverse or have any kind of disability.
But that's what I want to hear more about!

thewebguyd 11 hours ago

> But that's what I want to hear more about!

My own anecdotal experience: I'm on the spectrum, albeit pretty high functioning, and diagnosed ADHD Inattentive type. WfH has really allowed me to excel in my work like I never have before, especially in the early days.

Working in office is exhausting for me. I have a lot of tics/stims that I have to try and mask when around others, the lighting is usually horrible and distracting, open office plans or cubicles are a sensory nightmare. Just trying to mask alone is exhausting enough that I can't focus on work at all, and my performance suffers from it, and I get burned out really fast.

Now, I get to be comfortable in my own skin at home. I have my office set up exactly how I want, I can wear whatever I want, and at my job there's no expectation of cameras on for meetings. One of the best benefits, for me, is almost everything is done via written communication now. I take very few phone calls, and outside of meetings, all communication is done over chat or email. There's no one to just barge into my workspace to ask a question, interrupting my focus, which would essentially ruin the entire day's of productivity for me.

I also have a delayed circadian rhythm, and having to commute can be dangerous. There are many times that I just can't wake up enough in the morning to be alert enough to drive, even after a full night of restful sleep. I still have this problem, but with WfH I no longer have to drive, and there's some flexibility to start whenever I want as long as I'm on the first meeting of the day or there's no urgent tickets waiting for me (I'm not a dev, I'm a sysadmin).

With in office work, I can ask for accommodations, but it's difficult and has a stigma to ask "I need my own office, with a door, with plenty of natural light, my own control of overhead lighting, and for people to not interrupt me. Oh and I need flexibility to be able to come in whenever I want within a 2 hour window because some mornings I just can't wake up enough to be safe driving."

Lastly, there's no pressure to "fake work" or pretend to be productive beyond my own limits. Like one of the commenters earlier said, most people especially in knowledge work are probably only truly productive 4 to maybe 5 hours of the work day. I'm totally dead after about 4 hours of real work, so an 8 hour work day just doesn't make sense to me. When at home I can go do other things when I'm done with my work for the day, and just have alerts on my phone for tickets or calls/chat messages, I don't have to stay at my desk and pretend to work.

So yeah, WfH has been a godsend for me and I couldn't ever go back to in office work. I have no ambitions for promotions or management, so I plan to stick with this job basically until I retire so long as they continue to allow WfH. If that doesn't pan out, not sure what I'll do. While everyone else was down about the COVID lockdowns, it was basically some of the best times of my life and I was the happiest I've been in a while. WfH, less crowds, less traffic, and grocery stores had sensory hours.

er0k 8 hours ago

My own experience matches yours almost exactly. Thanks for sharing.

jayd16 11 hours ago

> Nobody is asking you to go beyond the contracted hours.

Remote work killed the concept of core hours. I started seeing meetings at 7am and 7pm as well as late messages because everyone was flexing their time. So yes, work hours did increase.

tmckd 14 hours ago

Some of the pandemic increase in time worked may have been a net benefit to the folks working. A lot of people I know spent at least some of the time they otherwise would have spent commuting working remotely. And, since commuting sucks, ended up happier for it. Anecdotes aren’t data, but this pattern was very common among people I know.

ednite 13 hours ago

In my case, I learned that grinding 12-16-hour days on a single skill (coding) isn’t beneficial to anyone. The quality drops, mistakes creep in, and the risk of burnout skyrockets. Clients typically only care about delivery. Did the thing get done, and does it work?

Meanwhile, some managers and even teammates seem to care more about the hours you clock than whether you crossed the finish line. I’ve never fully understood that mindset. Why glorify effort over results, especially in knowledge work?

philipwhiuk 14 hours ago

The business got more benefit. Harder to argue it is for the employees.

e1g 14 hours ago

If the business got more benefit, they would be fighting to keep this setup - and none are.

coolcase 13 hours ago

Businesses are not Austrian spherical rational actors. They are run by people with their own agendas that have much but not perfect alignment with the company.

Spooky23 13 hours ago

The companies “fighting” against this stuff are mostly large and not necessarily aiming at the same target for “benefit” as one might think.

On the whole, remote work gave workers more agency. That highlighted that the control that some layers of management weakened in some ways. It also highlights that poor processes are more easily exploited. Companies don’t vet their employees well where that is important, but not mandated by customer contracts… thus we’ve learned that many frauds are trivially accomplished if you never see people.

On the flip, less remote may ultimately be in the employees interest. If you’re some high level JPMC employee making $500k from your ski cottage in Vermont… well let’s say your NYC salary doesn’t reflect the market, and if you can succeed in Vermont, you can probably be replaced by someone making $100k in Iowa, $50k in Latin America or less in Asia.

The loudest voices on HN and other places about the awesomeness of remote work are really celebrating their success arbitrage… which always cuts both ways.

pipes 13 hours ago

I think you are probably right, however it could just be that managers are paranoid.

dylan604 12 hours ago

None are is a pretty wide brush. The ones that are not are not making news headlines. Only the companies demanding RTO are making headlines.

There are plenty of smaller start ups that are remote only. There are also companies boot strapping so they again are not making news with funding rounds.

TLDR Just because something is not in the news does not mean it does not exist.

jjk166 13 hours ago

And people work for businesses for their own self interest. A more successful business can afford to pay its employees more. Employees get more satisfaction from completing accomplishments. Tasks which make employees lives easier are more likely to get done. There is less stress when things are less crammed schedule-wise.

I mean we've all experienced the feeling of "I want to get this done but there just isn't enough time." Taking more hours of your day just exhausts you more, but eliminating a task that doesn't help you, whether it be busywork or a commute, is fantastic. If given the choice between sitting in traffic and knocking things off my to do list, what kind of freak would choose the former?

basilgohar 13 hours ago

There is a huge gulch and lag in most businesses between profit and benefit for the employees. Increased profit in the short and medium term rarely goes towards the employees benefit while losses tend to more directly impact employees (layoffs) rather quickly.

Oftentimes profit means hiring more people, not pay existing people more.

dingnuts 12 hours ago

outside of tech I'd agree, but the execs keep giving me big stock packages (I'm a mid-level at a company you have heard of) and the line going up has pretty immediately paid off for me.

isn't that normal for engineers? the sentiment you're expressing is one I can relate to more for employees who are only compensated with salary

ElevenLathe 11 hours ago

If you're a mid-level employee at a company on heard of (this describes me too) then I find it difficult to believe that the company stock performance is meaningfully related to your performance. I know for sure that our stock price would not suffer a penny if I dropped dead tomorrow, even if nobody noticed for years and my paychecks kept piling up in my bank account).

harimau777 13 hours ago

The problem is that a disproportionate amount of the additional profit when an employee works more hours (or just all of it) tends to go to the business not the employee who is actually doing the work.

JKCalhoun 13 hours ago

Management got more benefit.

cbogie 14 hours ago

maybe maybe not

blitzar 13 hours ago

I genuinely thought the meetings culture was out of control 10 years ago - it is way worse now. Management used to moan about sitting in meetings all day, I used to moan about it too because anytime I was in the meetings the first 20 minutes would be chit chat about the big game / their holiday plans / office gossip.

> You're Right You Are Working Longer and Attending More Meetings

But ... you are doing less work and more of your meetings are a complete waste of time.