112 points by robtherobber 17 hours ago | 108 comments
PaulRobinson 12 hours ago
The fact that the productivity metric used here is emails sent kind of proves my point: I send emails when I'm worn out with real work.
I've seen real teams cut hours and get more productive, so if the workday is extending that should be a red flag to employers: productivity is going down, and they need to push back on it.
If somebody runs a team or an org here and wants to A/B test it, I'd love to see the results. My anecdata is historical and not properly tested.
isk517 10 hours ago
yodsanklai 11 hours ago
You may be less productive after 5 hours of work, but even if your output 50% less in the next 5 hours, you'll still produce more by working more.
Employers don't care about productivity, they care about your total output. And it's not only employers, if you want to improve or pass a selective test or anything, you have to put the hours.
There may be some threshold where more work becomes detrimental, but it's definitely not 5 hours.
BriggyDwiggs42 10 hours ago
>its definitely not five hours
Why are you so sure?
yodsanklai 10 hours ago
And frankly, 5 hours a day isn't that much. It's perfectly fine is some people wants work life balance, but you will do more by working more, and if you're ambitious, it's hard to avoid putting the hours at some critical moments in your life.
ijk 10 hours ago
Long, sustained hours are more of a problem; in the US we routinely overwork doctors to the point of risking deadly error--in part because the standards of long hours during residencies were developed by William Stewart Halsted, a cocaine addict who worked 100+ hours per week.
const_cast 1 hour ago
Yes, for a little bit. But one thing I've consistently noticed is they're operating on borrowed time. Once the exam passes and the semester is over, they go into full burn-out mode. Now they're not even doing their laundry, let alone studying medicine.
Human productivity is incredibly fickle. We can be pushed really, really far, but we have to pay an immense debt.
SketchySeaBeast 10 hours ago
oceanplexian 8 hours ago
Doctors can pull a 10 hour shift for the same reason a call center worker can do the same thing. They aren’t doing deep knowledge work. The people actually doing the knowledge work are at research universities setting up controlled trials, running simulations, and putting out papers.
vasusen 10 hours ago
closeparen 10 hours ago
Koshima 13 hours ago
stringsandchars 12 hours ago
But this has been such a wake-up call. I stopped doing the extra work, no longer respond to questions that are out-of-hours, and have finally realized that the company really isn't my 'friend' or 'family'. But best of all, when I'm at the office I can just coast and do practically no work whatsoever - and not only does no-one notice, I've even been getting more managerial praise for my performance.
We're living in a mad world.
lesser23 11 hours ago
Perhaps I’ve been jaded by the industry after being in it so long but this struck me. I haven’t felt this way about any company, good or bad, in a long time. After surviving probably my 10th layoff across 5 different companies I can’t imagine ever being loyal, considering anyone at a company a “friend”, and most certainly not “family”.
I agree with your feeling that remote has really made me more productive. But I believe that’s because of the opposite of what you stated. I loved the ability to get a bunch of stuff done and then zone out the rest of the day. Without the constant interruptions, open office, etc I was able to get one giant burst of productivity and then check out. I was on paper “10x” and just omitted the fact I was only working 2/3 time.
Recently with RTO and myself being remote only I’ve been led to burnout. The company I am at has changed the merit equation from good work to showing up to the office. As a result, I end up picking up more slack during my workday as my coworkers get lunches, game rooms, parties, etc. I am still expected to grind and they are not. I sure do miss the remote first days.
dughnut 11 hours ago
I see it as a pay cut where commute and prep hours are uncompensated, and I adjust my valuation of the job accordingly.
lolinder 13 hours ago
* Don't install any company apps or log in to any company accounts on your phone.
* Set your working hours in your calendar and stick to them.
* Set your Slack status to automatically show you as away and snoozed outside your working hours.
* When you're done with work, shut down your laptop and walk away.
I've never received any complaints from sticking to this pattern. When I'm in my working hours I'm consistently reachable and I do my job, when I'm not you can't get hold of me if you try. This is how it was in the office, I don't see why the expectation should be different in WFH.
I do think that a key thing that makes this work well for me is that I'm consistently online during (and only during) my specified hours, rather than mixing and matching my schedule on a day to day basis. I'm not always reachable, but I'm predictably unreachable.
ljf 12 hours ago
They now stuck to their hours, got used to saying no, but worked hard while they were 'at work'. Part of the thinking was this moved them out of the group who were always staying on to finish something off, which can make you look ill-prepared or behind - despite the fact that you only there are you are taking on additional work.
tsumnia 12 hours ago
I think this became the driving force of "always at work". When you sit at home all day, you're online. And the inevitable "let me just check..." habit I know I formed starts to occur. At some point its 6 or 7pm as you're playing catch up on work and since its still "early" its fine to respond to that small email or Slack message. Next thing you know its 11 or 12 at night and you're still sitting on the computer browsing or working or doing something in between. The 24/7 chatroom is always open and there's always someone willing to socialize.
distances 12 hours ago
Once I've logged out of my work account it has never happened that I'd log back in the same evening, open the VPN, restart the browser etc just for a quick check of emails or chat messages.
tsumnia 10 hours ago
Some of this is a 'me' problem, needing to remember to disconnect from the world and all of the literal fires going on. I've been using the hyperbole that essentially my brain "exploded", so I deleted Reddit, been on an unsubscribe phase with my YouTube channels, and joined some smaller communities. That last one still keeps me online, but I look at as smaller community means silly memes and a group of people that eventually clock out for the night.
It's so much more quiet! I missed this.
0cf8612b2e1e 10 hours ago
distances 10 hours ago
It's a stupid thing but I started doing that at the beginning of the pandemic lockdowns and have kept it up ever since.
Infernal 13 hours ago
lukashoff 13 hours ago
There are plenty of us who became extremely productive and can finally enjoy life rather than constantly play the spectacle in the office or sit in traffic for hours. And don't get me started on the ones who are neurodiverse or have any kind of disability.
trollbridge 13 hours ago
During the WFH era which for me was 2017 - 2022, I made up for the 9 - 10 hour workdays by not using up PTO for doctor appointments, car repair shop trips, and so on. This worked reasonably well - and nobody minded if I was getting my oil changed or sitting for an hour at a doctor’s office lobby and responsive on Slack. It was a compromise that worked reasonably well.
We also carved out time for people to pick up/drop off kids at school. In exchange, the work day expanded from basically 8 to 5 or 9 to 6. Everyone was comfortable with this. I certainly didn’t mind people on my team doing this at all and really appreciated the extra availability - we just knew to plan around the school pick up and drop off times, which were also in the calendar as a recurring meeting.
What’s not working now is imposing RTO and trying to have the same extended hours. Sorry, but no, I’m not going to drive in from 7-8, work from 8-6 without breaks, and then drive home from 6-7.
ChrisMarshallNY 13 hours ago
Overwork can be corrosive to productivity and quality, but that can happen in-office, as much as at home.
But also, working at home does require self-discipline, and not everyone is able to do that. It's also like being a manager, or a company owner. These require a certain type of personality/skillset, and not everyone has it. There's a good possibility that we need external structure. I know folks who rented a desk in a local incubator, during COVID, because they needed the time away from home.
That's not necessarily a bad thing. Some of the most materially successful people in history, have been right bastards, in life. There's a lot to be said for a healthy work/life balance.
As far as neurodiverse folks; some of them can do very well at home.
willismichael 13 hours ago
And don't get me started on the ones who are neurodiverse or have any kind of disability.
But that's what I want to hear more about!thewebguyd 11 hours ago
My own anecdotal experience: I'm on the spectrum, albeit pretty high functioning, and diagnosed ADHD Inattentive type. WfH has really allowed me to excel in my work like I never have before, especially in the early days.
Working in office is exhausting for me. I have a lot of tics/stims that I have to try and mask when around others, the lighting is usually horrible and distracting, open office plans or cubicles are a sensory nightmare. Just trying to mask alone is exhausting enough that I can't focus on work at all, and my performance suffers from it, and I get burned out really fast.
Now, I get to be comfortable in my own skin at home. I have my office set up exactly how I want, I can wear whatever I want, and at my job there's no expectation of cameras on for meetings. One of the best benefits, for me, is almost everything is done via written communication now. I take very few phone calls, and outside of meetings, all communication is done over chat or email. There's no one to just barge into my workspace to ask a question, interrupting my focus, which would essentially ruin the entire day's of productivity for me.
I also have a delayed circadian rhythm, and having to commute can be dangerous. There are many times that I just can't wake up enough in the morning to be alert enough to drive, even after a full night of restful sleep. I still have this problem, but with WfH I no longer have to drive, and there's some flexibility to start whenever I want as long as I'm on the first meeting of the day or there's no urgent tickets waiting for me (I'm not a dev, I'm a sysadmin).
With in office work, I can ask for accommodations, but it's difficult and has a stigma to ask "I need my own office, with a door, with plenty of natural light, my own control of overhead lighting, and for people to not interrupt me. Oh and I need flexibility to be able to come in whenever I want within a 2 hour window because some mornings I just can't wake up enough to be safe driving."
Lastly, there's no pressure to "fake work" or pretend to be productive beyond my own limits. Like one of the commenters earlier said, most people especially in knowledge work are probably only truly productive 4 to maybe 5 hours of the work day. I'm totally dead after about 4 hours of real work, so an 8 hour work day just doesn't make sense to me. When at home I can go do other things when I'm done with my work for the day, and just have alerts on my phone for tickets or calls/chat messages, I don't have to stay at my desk and pretend to work.
So yeah, WfH has been a godsend for me and I couldn't ever go back to in office work. I have no ambitions for promotions or management, so I plan to stick with this job basically until I retire so long as they continue to allow WfH. If that doesn't pan out, not sure what I'll do. While everyone else was down about the COVID lockdowns, it was basically some of the best times of my life and I was the happiest I've been in a while. WfH, less crowds, less traffic, and grocery stores had sensory hours.
er0k 8 hours ago
jayd16 11 hours ago
Remote work killed the concept of core hours. I started seeing meetings at 7am and 7pm as well as late messages because everyone was flexing their time. So yes, work hours did increase.
tmckd 14 hours ago
ednite 13 hours ago
Meanwhile, some managers and even teammates seem to care more about the hours you clock than whether you crossed the finish line. I’ve never fully understood that mindset. Why glorify effort over results, especially in knowledge work?
philipwhiuk 14 hours ago
e1g 14 hours ago
coolcase 13 hours ago
Spooky23 13 hours ago
On the whole, remote work gave workers more agency. That highlighted that the control that some layers of management weakened in some ways. It also highlights that poor processes are more easily exploited. Companies don’t vet their employees well where that is important, but not mandated by customer contracts… thus we’ve learned that many frauds are trivially accomplished if you never see people.
On the flip, less remote may ultimately be in the employees interest. If you’re some high level JPMC employee making $500k from your ski cottage in Vermont… well let’s say your NYC salary doesn’t reflect the market, and if you can succeed in Vermont, you can probably be replaced by someone making $100k in Iowa, $50k in Latin America or less in Asia.
The loudest voices on HN and other places about the awesomeness of remote work are really celebrating their success arbitrage… which always cuts both ways.
pipes 13 hours ago
dylan604 12 hours ago
There are plenty of smaller start ups that are remote only. There are also companies boot strapping so they again are not making news with funding rounds.
TLDR Just because something is not in the news does not mean it does not exist.
jjk166 13 hours ago
I mean we've all experienced the feeling of "I want to get this done but there just isn't enough time." Taking more hours of your day just exhausts you more, but eliminating a task that doesn't help you, whether it be busywork or a commute, is fantastic. If given the choice between sitting in traffic and knocking things off my to do list, what kind of freak would choose the former?
basilgohar 13 hours ago
Oftentimes profit means hiring more people, not pay existing people more.
dingnuts 12 hours ago
isn't that normal for engineers? the sentiment you're expressing is one I can relate to more for employees who are only compensated with salary
ElevenLathe 11 hours ago
harimau777 13 hours ago
JKCalhoun 13 hours ago
cbogie 14 hours ago
blitzar 13 hours ago
> You're Right You Are Working Longer and Attending More Meetings
But ... you are doing less work and more of your meetings are a complete waste of time.