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The rise and fall of the English sentence (2017)

97 points by cal85 5 days ago | 50 comments

idlewords 4 days ago

It's fun to read letters written by children in the 18th century, as it gives you a little glimpse into what it was like to learn to write at this level of complexity, and what aspects of written language children were being taught to master.

Here for example is a letter from John Quincy Adams to his father, written when he was ten:

>DEAR SIR,—I love to receive letters very well; much better than I love to write them. I make but a poor figure at composition, my head is too fickle, my thoughts are running after birds eggs play and trifles, till I get vexed with myself. Mamma has a troublesome task to keep me steady, and I own I am ashamed of myself. [...] If I can but keep my resolution, I will write again at the end of the week and give a better account of myself. I wish, Sir, you would give me some instructions, with regard to my time, and advise me how to proportion my Studies and my Play, in writing, and I will keep them by me, and endeavor to follow them. I am, dear Sir, with a present determination of growing better, yours.

>P. S.—Sir, if you will be so good as to favor me with a Blank Book, I will transcribe the most remarkable occurances I meet with in my reading, which will serve to fix them upon my mind.

formerphotoj 4 days ago

I shall be pleased to thank you for favoring us with this most poignant example; my heart doth flutter a few nanoseconds at the innocence of youth both present and lost to short-form video. I exhale, with a touch of melancholy, but feel gratitude nonetheless.

idlewords 4 days ago

Another fun format to read is military orders in the Revolutionary War/Napoleonic Wars era, how generals wrote (with a quill!) when actual bullets were whizzing around them. Even Civil War era orders still sound extraordinarily formal, and such orders from all eras are written in beautiful handwriting.

082349872349872 4 days ago

I've read that Washington sent back, unopened, british letters which had been sent to him but without being addressed with all the proper military formalities.

Was that his way of ensuring he didn't get labelled as an unlawful combatant?

> such orders from all eras are written in beautiful handwriting

the 1876 orders to bring ammunition sent at Greasy Grass ("Custer's Last Stand") are an obvious counterexample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn#/...

are you sure you haven't been looking at transcriptions? (as in the upper right of the example above)

billfruit 4 days ago

Where can one read those

082349872349872 4 days ago

That the XVIII, with its love of symmetry: oft observed in contrast as well as in comparison, and with its love of ornament: ascending from initial observation; continuing through main example; and ending upon a final period, is well exemplified by Gibbon, who in this inimitable style filled not just one, nor yet three, but a full six volumes of The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776), is a fact to which all must acquiesce, yet, even so, the "short-form" was also present during this era, perhaps most memorably in the tricolon, as brief as it was lacking in invention, with which Prince William Henry, Duke of Gloucester and Edinburgh, greeted Gibbon's second volume: "Always scribble, scribble, scribble! Eh, Mr. Gibbon?"

billfruit 4 days ago

Also Macaulay in his 5 volumes of the History of England.

Not to mention Carlyle, who elevates it to an even more lofty style that one wonders if he has not overcooked it.

kstrauser 4 days ago

Truuuue, but that was John High-I-Quincy Adams, that one study estimated had an IQ around 170: https://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jcampbel/documents/SimontonPre...

Even if he didn't, there's a lot of evidence that Johnny Boy was exceptionally bright, to say the least. You can't really expect that level of writing skill from a typical 10 year old.

karaterobot 4 days ago

I'm not sure about the idea of retrospectively assigning IQ scores to dead people who never took an IQ test.

For what it's worth, I believe a reasonably intelligent child could have written that. Here's another letter, this one written by a 12-year old girl in 1842, which is similar to the other except for being, if anything, a bit more composed.

https://100yearsofstories.wordpress.com/2016/01/06/my-deares...

> My dear Papa,

> It is with much pleasure I write to you these few lines to inform you that our vacation will commence on the 18th of the month when I hope you will find me improved in all my studies in which I have done my best. Miss Sykes and Miss Martha present their compliments and hope though late you will accept their thanks for the very nice hare you were so kind as to send.

> With love to all at home, you remain my dear papa.

LegionMammal978 4 days ago

Especially since an IQ of 170 would have put you within the top 1,500 people in the world, and within the top 2 in the U.S. I wouldn't trust any sort of scoring process that yields a number far into the upper tail.

antonvs 4 days ago

We also don't know to what extent mom might have helped with these letters to dad.

seabass-labrax 4 days ago

> You can't really expect that level of writing skill from a typical 10 year old.

Can't you? I've taken the quote from the parent comment and replaced every punctuation mark and coordinating conjunction that separates independent clauses with an interpunct, and bracketed the relative clauses.

> I love to receive letters very well • much better than [I love to write them] • I make but a poor figure at composition • my head is too fickle • my thoughts are running after birds eggs play and trifles [till I get vexed with myself] • Mamma has a troublesome task [to keep me steady] • I own [I am ashamed of myself] • [If I can but keep my resolution] I will write again at the end of the week • give a better account of myself • I wish you would [give me some instructions with regard to my time] • advise me how [to proportion my Studies and my Play] in writing • I will keep them by me • endeavor to follow them • I am with a present determination of growing better • [if you will be so good as [to favor me with a Blank Book]] I will transcribe the most remarkable occurances [I meet with in my reading] [which will serve to [fix them upon my mind]]

As you can see, there is no nesting deeper than one level except at the very end. There's a range of vocabulary, but most of the words were common in English at the time of writing and have simply fallen out of fashion. 'Fickle' is usually now 'impatient'; neither expresses a more complex idea than the other. Assuming the letter is representative of genuine sentiment, I find his desire for personal development more impressive than his language; indeed his commitment to reply to correspondence promptly is the most positive reflection of his character.

ascorbic 4 days ago

I think we're biased by the fact that old-fashioned writing style always sounds more fancy and formal. I don't know how much kids' writing you've read recently (school writing, not social media), but I reckon most reasonably smart 10 year olds today absolutely could write like that. My daughter is 10 and (parental bias notwithstanding) she's smart but not genius-level, and she has writing that complex in her school books.

RhysU 4 days ago

Definitely biased. The older things we read tend to be great works by smart people so we attribute that style to intelligence. But it was just written style, among a certain class, once upon a time.

English styles changed. For example, Hemingway was brutally brief.

I believe (but don't know) that the further from the Anglosphere one goes today the longer and more ornate the written language tends. Anyone know how to confirm or deny? I have only anecdata from those who were high-school educated in Farsi or Russian before moving to the US.

MarkusWandel 4 days ago

Constructing elegant, deeply nested sentences is an art in English as well as German (my first language). But it is an art, more for connoisseurs than those who really need to communicate.

An art that I appreciate more is at the opposite end. Constructing elegant prose out of relatively simple sentences, like Ernest Hemingway.

"He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish. In the first forty days a boy had been with him. But after forty days without a fish the boy's parents had told him that the old man was now definitely and finally salao, which is the worst form of unlucky, and the boy had gone at their orders in another boat which caught three good fish the first week. It made the boy sad to see the old man come in each day with his skiff empty and he always went down to help him carry either the coiled lines or the gaff and harpoon and the sail that was furled around the mast. The sail was patched with flour sacks and, furled, it looked like the flag of permanent defeat."

Long sentences for sure, but is there any nesting in there at all? I can't see any.

antonvs 4 days ago

> is there any nesting in there at all? I can't see any.

There's an enormous amount of nesting in there. However:

1. You probably aren't familiar with the linguistic definition of the term - see e.g. https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/fass/projects/stylistics/topic7/... for a summary

2. Your brain deals with it without you recognizing it

3. Hemingway often avoids punctuation to give the illusion of an un-nested stream.

Here's a version with some of the nesting annotated, just to give an idea of how nested it is. It may look excessive, but in fact it's missing some nesting because I don't have infinite time:

"[He was an old man [who fished alone [in a skiff [in the Gulf Stream]]] and [he had gone eighty-four days now [without taking a fish]].] [In the first forty days [a boy had been with him.]] [But [after forty days [without a fish]] [the boy's parents had told him [that [the old man was now definitely and finally salao, [which is [the worst form [of unlucky]]]]]] and [the boy had gone [at their orders] [in another boat [which caught three good fish [the first week]]]].] [It made the boy sad [to see [the old man come in [each day [with his skiff empty]]]] and [he always went down [to help him carry [either [the coiled lines] or [the gaff and harpoon and [the sail [that was furled [around the mast]]]]]]].] [The sail was patched [with flour sacks] and, [furled], [it looked [like [the flag [of permanent defeat]]]].]"

As an example of missing nesting, "[In the first forty days [a boy had been with him.]]" should be more like "[In [the first forty days]], [a boy] [had been [with him]]."

seabass-labrax 3 days ago

Your definition of nesting is slightly different from what's being used elsewhere in the thread: the article discusses the nesting of clauses, and the essential component of a clause in English is a verb. "in a skiff in the Gulf Stream" isn't a complete clause (and doesn't contain any) because there's no verb. "who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream" is a clause - to fish is the verb - but still not a complete sentence unless interpreted as a question. I'm sure you know that but the terminology isn't consistent between comments in this thread.

munchler 4 days ago

Yes, using conjunctions to compose small sentences into larger ones is a form of recursive nesting. For example:

"[He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream] and [he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish]."

"[It made the boy sad to see the old man come in each day with his skiff empty] and [he always went down to help him carry either the coiled lines or the gaff and harpoon and the sail that was furled around the mast]."

joe5150 4 days ago

The relative clause "which is the worst form of unlucky" is embedded, among other complexities here. Obviously this doesn't make the text less readable, so I don't think nesting per se is the problem.

jcul 4 days ago

It's been so long since I've read this that I can't even remember the plot.

But I remember loving it as a teenager. I must go and reread it soon. That, and For whom the bell tolls, which I can remember slightly clearer.

pattisapu 4 days ago

Is there something special about loading complexity into the level of the sentence as opposed to individual words?

Agglutination in many Native American languages and compounding in many Indo-European languages come to mind as examples where interesting nesting and complex relational structures can be found at the level of the word.

The article suggests that speakers of English or German can do "mental arithmetic" whereas speakers of Ket have lots of "math facts." I don't know anything about Ket, but German, Sanskrit, and other languages seem to have a lot in the way of mental arithmetic when it comes to making up long compound words, which are not such a static or stable currency as in, say, English.

cvoss 5 days ago

If you're confused by the glaring bracket-matching errors in the opening quotation, it is missing two left brackets at the start of the sentence and three right brackets at the end of the sentence. That would correctly balance and nest the bracket pairs and bring the total number of clauses to 8, as described in the first paragraph.

I wonder if the missing brackets are an artifact of some weird automated typesetting/rendering or if an editor who never bothered to read the article came through and said, "Quotations shouldn't start and end with random brackets!"

sdwr 5 days ago

I didn't catch the missing brackets, but I did stop reading after the Sumerian quote that bracketed each nested clause independently.