97 points by cal85 5 days ago | 50 comments
idlewords 4 days ago
Here for example is a letter from John Quincy Adams to his father, written when he was ten:
>DEAR SIR,—I love to receive letters very well; much better than I love to write them. I make but a poor figure at composition, my head is too fickle, my thoughts are running after birds eggs play and trifles, till I get vexed with myself. Mamma has a troublesome task to keep me steady, and I own I am ashamed of myself. [...] If I can but keep my resolution, I will write again at the end of the week and give a better account of myself. I wish, Sir, you would give me some instructions, with regard to my time, and advise me how to proportion my Studies and my Play, in writing, and I will keep them by me, and endeavor to follow them. I am, dear Sir, with a present determination of growing better, yours.
>P. S.—Sir, if you will be so good as to favor me with a Blank Book, I will transcribe the most remarkable occurances I meet with in my reading, which will serve to fix them upon my mind.
formerphotoj 4 days ago
idlewords 4 days ago
082349872349872 4 days ago
Was that his way of ensuring he didn't get labelled as an unlawful combatant?
> such orders from all eras are written in beautiful handwriting
the 1876 orders to bring ammunition sent at Greasy Grass ("Custer's Last Stand") are an obvious counterexample: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Little_Bighorn#/...
are you sure you haven't been looking at transcriptions? (as in the upper right of the example above)
billfruit 4 days ago
082349872349872 4 days ago
billfruit 4 days ago
Not to mention Carlyle, who elevates it to an even more lofty style that one wonders if he has not overcooked it.
kstrauser 4 days ago
Even if he didn't, there's a lot of evidence that Johnny Boy was exceptionally bright, to say the least. You can't really expect that level of writing skill from a typical 10 year old.
karaterobot 4 days ago
For what it's worth, I believe a reasonably intelligent child could have written that. Here's another letter, this one written by a 12-year old girl in 1842, which is similar to the other except for being, if anything, a bit more composed.
https://100yearsofstories.wordpress.com/2016/01/06/my-deares...
> My dear Papa,
> It is with much pleasure I write to you these few lines to inform you that our vacation will commence on the 18th of the month when I hope you will find me improved in all my studies in which I have done my best. Miss Sykes and Miss Martha present their compliments and hope though late you will accept their thanks for the very nice hare you were so kind as to send.
> With love to all at home, you remain my dear papa.
LegionMammal978 4 days ago
antonvs 4 days ago
seabass-labrax 4 days ago
Can't you? I've taken the quote from the parent comment and replaced every punctuation mark and coordinating conjunction that separates independent clauses with an interpunct, and bracketed the relative clauses.
> I love to receive letters very well • much better than [I love to write them] • I make but a poor figure at composition • my head is too fickle • my thoughts are running after birds eggs play and trifles [till I get vexed with myself] • Mamma has a troublesome task [to keep me steady] • I own [I am ashamed of myself] • [If I can but keep my resolution] I will write again at the end of the week • give a better account of myself • I wish you would [give me some instructions with regard to my time] • advise me how [to proportion my Studies and my Play] in writing • I will keep them by me • endeavor to follow them • I am with a present determination of growing better • [if you will be so good as [to favor me with a Blank Book]] I will transcribe the most remarkable occurances [I meet with in my reading] [which will serve to [fix them upon my mind]]
As you can see, there is no nesting deeper than one level except at the very end. There's a range of vocabulary, but most of the words were common in English at the time of writing and have simply fallen out of fashion. 'Fickle' is usually now 'impatient'; neither expresses a more complex idea than the other. Assuming the letter is representative of genuine sentiment, I find his desire for personal development more impressive than his language; indeed his commitment to reply to correspondence promptly is the most positive reflection of his character.
ascorbic 4 days ago
RhysU 4 days ago
English styles changed. For example, Hemingway was brutally brief.
I believe (but don't know) that the further from the Anglosphere one goes today the longer and more ornate the written language tends. Anyone know how to confirm or deny? I have only anecdata from those who were high-school educated in Farsi or Russian before moving to the US.
MarkusWandel 4 days ago
An art that I appreciate more is at the opposite end. Constructing elegant prose out of relatively simple sentences, like Ernest Hemingway.
"He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream and he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish. In the first forty days a boy had been with him. But after forty days without a fish the boy's parents had told him that the old man was now definitely and finally salao, which is the worst form of unlucky, and the boy had gone at their orders in another boat which caught three good fish the first week. It made the boy sad to see the old man come in each day with his skiff empty and he always went down to help him carry either the coiled lines or the gaff and harpoon and the sail that was furled around the mast. The sail was patched with flour sacks and, furled, it looked like the flag of permanent defeat."
Long sentences for sure, but is there any nesting in there at all? I can't see any.
antonvs 4 days ago
There's an enormous amount of nesting in there. However:
1. You probably aren't familiar with the linguistic definition of the term - see e.g. https://www.lancaster.ac.uk/fass/projects/stylistics/topic7/... for a summary
2. Your brain deals with it without you recognizing it
3. Hemingway often avoids punctuation to give the illusion of an un-nested stream.
Here's a version with some of the nesting annotated, just to give an idea of how nested it is. It may look excessive, but in fact it's missing some nesting because I don't have infinite time:
"[He was an old man [who fished alone [in a skiff [in the Gulf Stream]]] and [he had gone eighty-four days now [without taking a fish]].] [In the first forty days [a boy had been with him.]] [But [after forty days [without a fish]] [the boy's parents had told him [that [the old man was now definitely and finally salao, [which is [the worst form [of unlucky]]]]]] and [the boy had gone [at their orders] [in another boat [which caught three good fish [the first week]]]].] [It made the boy sad [to see [the old man come in [each day [with his skiff empty]]]] and [he always went down [to help him carry [either [the coiled lines] or [the gaff and harpoon and [the sail [that was furled [around the mast]]]]]]].] [The sail was patched [with flour sacks] and, [furled], [it looked [like [the flag [of permanent defeat]]]].]"
As an example of missing nesting, "[In the first forty days [a boy had been with him.]]" should be more like "[In [the first forty days]], [a boy] [had been [with him]]."
seabass-labrax 3 days ago
munchler 4 days ago
"[He was an old man who fished alone in a skiff in the Gulf Stream] and [he had gone eighty-four days now without taking a fish]."
"[It made the boy sad to see the old man come in each day with his skiff empty] and [he always went down to help him carry either the coiled lines or the gaff and harpoon and the sail that was furled around the mast]."
joe5150 4 days ago
jcul 4 days ago
But I remember loving it as a teenager. I must go and reread it soon. That, and For whom the bell tolls, which I can remember slightly clearer.
pattisapu 4 days ago
Agglutination in many Native American languages and compounding in many Indo-European languages come to mind as examples where interesting nesting and complex relational structures can be found at the level of the word.
The article suggests that speakers of English or German can do "mental arithmetic" whereas speakers of Ket have lots of "math facts." I don't know anything about Ket, but German, Sanskrit, and other languages seem to have a lot in the way of mental arithmetic when it comes to making up long compound words, which are not such a static or stable currency as in, say, English.
cvoss 5 days ago
I wonder if the missing brackets are an artifact of some weird automated typesetting/rendering or if an editor who never bothered to read the article came through and said, "Quotations shouldn't start and end with random brackets!"
sdwr 5 days ago