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A UC Santa Cruz professor unearthed the oldest alphabet yet

141 points by diodorus 4 days ago | 46 comments

legerdemain 4 hours ago

I almost took an introductory course on archeology with Glenn Schwartz, many years ago, but dropped it after the first class. I remember having very different emotional responses to faculty members as a student. Schwartz struck me as elegant, diffident, blue-blooded, and completely disinterested in teaching a bunch of young morons who were just taking the course as a distribution requirement. I'm glad to see that he and his former students are an influential force in this area of study.

godelski 3 hours ago

I always say a professor has (at least) 3 personalities, each of which do not need be similar to one another

  - Teacher
  - Advisor
  - Faculty
I've seen professors be great faculty members where everyone likes them but they are an abusive advisor and terrible teacher. I've seen professors be amazing advisors, terrible teachers, and most faculty members hate them (often happens when lots of department politics and this person is usually highly research focused). I've also seen people be good at all 3 and terrible at all 3. The current chair of my department is the latter and was unanimously voted against for chair, but no one else ran so he won by default lol.

ahazred8ta 4 days ago

The inscribed Umm el-Marra cylinders of northwestern Syria, circa 2400 BC, 500 years before alphabetic writing was derived in Sinai from Egyptian hieratic phonetic writing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Sinaitic_script

casenmgreen 18 hours ago

So we are in fact talking a non proto-Sinaitic script?

One that presumably did not succeed, and was superseded by proto-Sinaitic?

Or perhaps influenced / led to proto-Sinaitic?

adrian_b 18 hours ago

The article does not provide the slightest clue about why the researchers believe that this is an alphabetic script, taking into account that they say that it does not resemble other known scripts.

Usually it is assumed that a script is alphabetic instead of being syllabic when the total number of distinct symbols is small, but this is not foolproof, because there are languages with a relatively small number of distinct syllables, like Japanese, so there is an overlap in the number of distinct symbols between alphabetic scripts for languages with a great number of phonemes and syllabic scripts for languages with a small number of syllables.

However, in this case it appears that the total amount of recovered text is quite small, so it would contain a small number of distinct symbols even if the original writing system had a greater number of distinct symbols, which did not happen to be recorded here.

Because the small total number of distinct symbols may be an accident in this case, it would not be enough to prove that this is an alphabetic script.

One should not forget that already since its origin, millennia before this, the Egyptian writing system had contained as a subset a set of symbols equivalent with the later Semitic alphabets, i.e. where each symbol was used for a single consonant.

However the Egyptian writing system has never used its alphabetic subset alone (except sometimes for transcribing foreign names), but together with many other symbols used for writing multiple consonants.

The invention of the Semitic alphabets did not add anything new, but it greatly simplified the Egyptian writing system by deleting all symbols used for multiple consonants and using exclusively the small number of symbols denoting a single consonant.

Because the alphabetic script has been invented by trying to apply the principles of the Egyptian writing to a non-Egyptian language, it could have been inspired by an already existing practice of using the alphabetic subset of the Egyptian writing for the transcription of foreign words.

All the many writing systems that have been invented independently of the Egyptian writing have used symbols denoting either syllables or words. Only the Egyptian writing had the peculiar characteristic of denoting only the consonants of the speech, independently of the vowels, which is what has enabled the development of alphabetic writing systems from it.

airstrike 9 hours ago

Wait, you're the same person that made the super insightful comment about the origins of life and RNA yesterday...

I'm honestly amazed at how you know so much about everything

fuzzfactor 4 hours ago

>the same person that made the super insightful comment about the origins of life and RNA yesterday...

Astute observation.

That's some worthwhile reading.

I would say that some people can make use of natural intelligence better than others can do with the artificial stuff.

kagevf 5 hours ago

> there are languages with a relatively small number of distinct syllables, like Japanese

Japanese has around 50 syllabic symbols, depending on how you count - include both sets of kana? include more archaic kana? etc

What would be a more typical number of syllabic symbols? I tried googling it to get an idea, but couldn't find much useful information. I guess Arabic has 28?

airstrike 4 hours ago

I think they meant syllables specifically, not syllabic symbols. Meanings syllabic symbols might get confused for an alphabet if the language has a sufficiently small set of syllables. See https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/a/36909

kagevf 3 hours ago

Yeah, was aware of that possibility; I guess I should have made a point about the disctinction between symbols vs "possible sound combinations" (my words). And even "possible sound combinations" can be further limited to "actually used sound combinations" as mentioned in the answer on that SO link.

So, in terms of "possible sound combinations" I think Japanese would likely be on the lower side given that the number of sounds are also pretty low. Alright, thank you for that reply; the point in the original post I replied to makes more sense to me now.

thaumasiotes 6 hours ago

> All the many writing systems that have been invented independently of the Egyptian writing have used symbols denoting either syllables or words. Only the Egyptian writing had the peculiar characteristic of denoting only the consonants of the speech, independently of the vowels, which is what has enabled the development of alphabetic writing systems from it.

Hangul was developed independently of Egyptian script and is purely alphabetic.

bunupepeurjfh 16 hours ago

I hope we will get much more research like this, now when Syria is liberated and has Democratic governors!

donbox 11 hours ago

Its friendly governors but not yet proven to be democratic.

koshergweilo 6 hours ago

How democratic a regime is can only be measured in hindsight unfortunately

sandworm101 11 hours ago

>> I try to keep that in mind when I’m excavating today; scholars of the future are counting on us to leave the best documentation we can.

The answer is to stop digging. It is understood that imaging techniques will eventually be good enough that artifacts may soon be studdied without disturbing the surrounding soil, without destroying all that evidence that future generations might be able to use. Of course that means disrupting the dig-to-museum/auction/television pipeline that funds the field.

mmooss 7 hours ago

> It is understood that imaging techniques will eventually be good enough that artifacts may soon be studdied without disturbing the surrounding soil

Who understands that? It's very interesting. Is there somewhere in archaeology where it's discussed? Is there a paper or article? It might be interesting for HN's front page.

detourdog 5 hours ago

I have heard old time time tv episodes explain that. They were asked why sto digging a site and that was the answer. Archeology seems to be self aware as a discipline. The modern participants have been ham strung by earlier generations.

sandworm101 4 hours ago

It is happening today. Chambers inside Egypt's great pyramid were detected in 2016 using muon imaging. It was a slow process but radically less damaging than the alternatives such as drilling test holes. More commonly, ground penetrating radar is regularly used to avoid digging test or exploratory trenches across sites. As resolution increases, fewer and fewer trenches need be dug. Scans are often used years prior to digging as a non-invasive way to confirm the existance of structures in aid of grant proposals. At some point, the scans will be the entire dig.

mmooss 2 hours ago

I've heard of that application, but will it detect faint writing, which experts weren't intially sure was writing, on a 4 cm long piece of rock? I don't that's happening any time soon.

sandworm101 7 minutes ago

They said that about x-rays. Now we have cat scan machines.

rastignack 10 hours ago

Who knows what will happen in Syria in the next decades. We need to document as much as we can, while we can.

detourdog 4 hours ago

Here is something regarding a 3d scan of a building destroyed by Isis. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/may/27/isis-palmyra-...