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Wired's Attack on Privacy

112 points by snvzz 2 days ago | 69 comments

VariousPrograms 1 day ago

It's silly how privacy detractors try to associate so-and-so terrible group with any software that simply lets people talk without corporate or government surveillance, as if the concept of a private conversation is a strange and suspicious thing now.

krunck 22 hours ago

emodendroket 1 day ago

I think in principle most people agree that it's appropriate under some limited circumstances for authorities to listen in to private conversations, given well-founded suspicion of illegal activities taking place, so digital tools making that outright impossible do pose a problem most people find a bit uncomfortable, whether or not they feel the benefits outweigh the downsides.

axus 1 day ago

You allow limited circumstances, and then they build MYSTIC to record every phone call in the country illegally.

Gud 1 day ago

The tools don’t make it “impossible” though, they just don’t actively assist.

The cops are free to get a warrant and use whatever tools they have in their arsenal.

emodendroket 10 hours ago

Traditionally the tools they have in their arsenal include the cooperation of communications providers.

barryrandall 24 hours ago

The problem is that there's no effective way to enforce those limits without compromising everyone's privacy. It simply is not possible to have privacy and any amount of eavesdropping.

em-bee 1 day ago

not at all.

as our social life makes more and more use of digital communication, it must have the same protections as a face to face conversation in my home.

in germany wiretapping is only allowed for serious crimes and home surveillance is even more restricted.

in other words if digital communication gets the same protection as home surveillance then you can just use that home surveillance or try to install a listening tool on the persons phone. if home surveillance is not possible then why should digital surveillance be any easier?

emodendroket 10 hours ago

> in germany wiretapping is only allowed for serious crimes and home surveillance is even more restricted.

In other words, in some limited circumstances authorities can listen in

AlexandrB 1 day ago

To play devil's advocate: private face-to-face conversations do not allow for effective coordination of actions across large distances. There are plenty of good arguments for keeping the government out of everyone's private messages, but this kind of messaging and a conversation are not the same thing.

BLKNSLVR 1 day ago

Aware that I'm reacting to someone playing devil's advocate...

> private face-to-face conversations do not allow for effective coordination of actions across large distances. <snip> this kind of messaging and a conversation are not the same thing.

Technology allows it. The same way it allows for myriad other applications that technology has made possible via extension of a base capability. I would argue that the technological ability extend 'topic X' makes it close enough to "the same thing".

If a Government has a problem with an app because it allows private conversation between physically distant individuals, then that Government likely also has a problem with private conversations between non-physically distant individuals. They just won't mention that because it's transparently obviously authoritarian.

The 'technology' angle only has political play because there will always be a core contingent of society that is scared enough of technology to have a much louder voice than their numbers would indicate.

em-bee 1 day ago

exactly, technology changes our social life. many things that used to only be possible when people were at the same location, are now possible over the distance. this not only affects how we interact but also who we interact with. in the past i could only have friends where i lived. now i have friends all over the world. why should the communication with those distant friends be any less private than the communication with my friends at home?

Brian_K_White 1 day ago

Just as the governments power to violate anyones privacy when needed was previously tolerable only because it was physically limited.

ie warrants and wire taps and physically breaking in to buildings and safes could be done to anyone at any time, but not everyone, at the same time, all the time, from afar, without even being seen.

It's disingenuous to rationalize or excuse one without acknowledging the other.

And even the old form of the right and ability to break in to any safe still didn't magically un-burn a paper, so that argument against encryption was never valid.

Devils advocate is a critical role, but in this case it only serves the valuable role of showing that no matter how hard one tries, there is no validity to authoritarian/statist attacks on encryption, or indeed any self-actualized tech.

big-green-man 1 day ago

Yes, they do, it just takes longer to enact what was coordinated.

There's no fundamental difference between a conversation in a meadow and one online.

jgwil2 1 day ago

Sometimes quantity has a quality all of its own. The difference is in the number of people who can be involved and the distances that can be conquered, but those differences completely change the possibilities of online speech.

big-green-man 20 hours ago

But there's nothing fundamental about that distinction that warrants a separate set of societal rules. It's just scale: more people, farther distance, shorter time frames.

croes 1 day ago

Then where is the problem? Let‘s get rid of the online tools and go back to the meadows.

big-green-man 20 hours ago

I never said there was a problem with anything.

janderland 1 day ago

This is not true. We’ve all observed how differently people behave online. The anonymity aspect creates different social outcomes.

While there are arguments for preserving encryption, acting like online communication is the same as face to face is disingenuous.

big-green-man 20 hours ago

We are talking specifically with regard to private communication between people, not speaker's corner online, that's a separate discussion, although I'd have similar views on that topic as well.

It's not the same. But it's not fundamentally different, it's just the technology makes it such that meeting up with someone to talk, no matter where they are, is trivial. It's like a pulley.

remram 1 day ago

Wow what a hit piece from Wired. And not even a month after their article "Seriously, Use Encrypted Messaging".

What the hell happened? Do they hate someone at SimpleX? Or hate Jack Dorsey? This is not journalism...

from-nibly 1 day ago

They don't hate anyone. They just love money.

emodendroket 1 day ago

So what are they doing in the magazine business?

red-iron-pine 22 hours ago

Flailing, mostly

sunaookami 1 day ago

Government propaganda

skeptrune 2 days ago

>SimpleX design restricts message visibility and file retention, making it far from ideal for those looking to coordinate large networks.

Telegram's and discord's "news" style channel features have always seemed to attract the wrong kind of usage.

An article criticizing private messaging apps for dedicated features like that which enable hate groups and scammers would be more interesting. Encryption seems like a red herring.

mind-blight 1 day ago

I'm also curious how it would affect CSAM proliferation. That's one of the biggest angles of attack on encryption (see how many times the UK has tried to ban it). If their techniques mitigated that, then it could take done if the wind out of the sales of folks trying to weaken encryption

racked 14 hours ago

> Telegram's and discord's "news" style channel features have always seemed to attract the wrong kind of usage.

The only ones I've seen are for porn distribution and crypto banter. What do you refer to when saying 'the wrong kind'?

inquirerGeneral 1 day ago

no one cares what enables hate groups, it's not 2022 anymore

krunck 22 hours ago

If they made a desktop version you'd know they are serious about privacy. Instead you are forced to use mobile platforms which are, in reality, anti-privacy.

snvzz 12 hours ago

>desktop version

There is an official Linux client for the terminal.

It is likely that someone will eventually make a multi-platform GUI.

unethical_ban 22 hours ago

1) It makes sense to go where the users are.

2) Major mobile platforms are anti privacy in some ways, reasonably private in others

3) Mobile devices have cameras which make QR/key sharing much easier than desktop

4) GrapheneOS