199 points by beryilma 2 days ago | 146 comments
0xbadcafebee 1 day ago
Every company I go to, the base of knowledge of all the engineers is a complete crapshoot. Most of them lack fundamental knowledge about software engineering. And they all lack fundamental knowledge about the processes used to do the work.
That's not how engineering should work. If I hire an architect, I shouldn't have to quiz them to find out if they understand Young's Modulus, much less teach them about it on the job. But that's completely normal in software engineering today, because nobody is expected to have already learned a universal body of knowledge.
I get this thing isn't perfect. But not being perfect isn't a rational argument for not having one at all. And we certainly need to hold people accountable to have learned it before we give them a job. We need a body of knowledge, it needs to be up to date and relevant, and we need to prove people have actually read it and understood it. If this isn't it, fine, but we still need one.
(this is, by the way, kind of the whole fucking point of a trade school and professional licensing... why the fuck we don't have one for software engineers/IT, boggles my fucking mind, if this is supposed to be the future of work)
creer 1 day ago
Historically I have tended to learn about a new field WAY too much before I tried to hire people in these fields. The truth is, that makes it hard to hire people (but for good reason - depending on your needs, you need to pass on a lot of people). More recently I have tried to pay very close attention to how people do their work (about whose field I am building an interest). The sad reality of the world is that most people and businesses stay in business entirely through dumb luck and because the world is not usually THAT demanding. And if you have a specific requirement, they won't be able to help "out of the box".
You are imagining this competence. It doesn't exist in most people.
And to compound this, to me, the characteristic of an engineer is that they are capable of learning about a specialty discipline. If you hire an engineer and they are incapable of learning something that's needed in your project, THAT is where their problem is (and yours for not hiring to that.) Engineering is not a trade. Certifications are usually about selling them or gatekeeping. I wish it were possible to certify "engineering progress mindset" - no, it doesn't have an ISO number.
0xbadcafebee 18 hours ago
But I am also aware what the lack of it does. It leads to buildings falling down or burning up [with people in them]. This was a common occurrence 100+ years ago. You know what made it less common? Standardization. Building codes. Minimum standards for engineers and the trades. Independent studies have all concluded that real world outcomes improved across the board because of these things.
No formal certification or standard will lead to perfection. That is obvious. But what is also obvious, from actually looking at outcomes before and after their introduction, is that having them leads to better outcomes.
You have to stop thinking about individual engineers, and start thinking about the much, much larger picture. What changes will have a positive effect on the larger picture? You can only have an effect on the larger picture if you enforce a change across the board, and then look at the aggregate results.
That can not happen without a mechanism to enforce the change. We can't pray our way to better results, or just sit around hoping people magically get better at their jobs, because that clearly has not happened for the last few decades that I've been working.
The more we depend on technology, the more we see the failures of a lack of rigor. Probably every single person with an address and social security number in the United States has had their personal information leaked, multiple times over, by now. Lives are ruined by systems that do not take into consideration the consequences of a lack of safety, or the bias of its creators. Entire global transportation systems are shut down because nobody added basic tests or fail-safes to critical software infrastructure.
This shit isn't rocket science, man. It was all preventable. And just like with building codes, standards, licenses, etc, we can put things in place to actually teach people the right way to do things, and actually check for the preventable things, by law. If we don't, it's going to keep happening, and keep happening, and keep happening, and keep happening, forever.
We can do something to stop it. But we have to pound our fist on the desk and say, enough is enough. We have to put something imperfect in place to stem the tide of enshittification. Because there are consequences if we don't.
We have seen some of them globally in the form of warfare, but nothing compared to the devastation when the gloves come off. We have not yet seen an entire country's hacker resources attack the water, power, sanitation, food, and other systems of its enemy, all at once. But it's going to happen. And it's going to be devastating. Millions of people are going to die because some asshole set a default password on some SCADA systems. But it should have been impossible, because no SCADA system should be allowed to be sold with default passwords. That's the kind of thing we can prevent, just like you can't build a building today without a fire exit.
That's the really big obvious impact. The impact nobody sees are from tiny decisions all the time, that slowly affect a few people at a time, but on the scale of millions of businesses and billions of people, add up to really big effects. We can make a huge difference here too, which will only be visible in aggregate later on. Like public sanitation, clean water, or hand-washing with soap, nobody thinks about the dramatic effect on public health and longevity until it's clear after decades what kind of impact it made. Technology is everywhere, in every home, affecting every life. The more we improve it [as a standard], the more we will see huge positive impacts later.
creer 17 hours ago
To me, this is a more interesting comparison. Is it PE certification and contractor licenses that led to this or is it building codes, construction inspectors, occupancy permits? I will argue that it's inspectors, NOT PE or contractors. And I will argue that the buildings codes have major negative consequences also. We all know of constructions methods that would have great benefits but have to be abandonned because they don't easily fit the current code. We all know of buildings that are to-code and yet ridiculously noisy and cheaply built.
I will also argue that there are building code equivalents already in software and system architecture. There are several for "certifying" system or site security and systems that host credit card payments. And we all know how well they work. So I agree with you that there is room for progress there, but I will also argue that the approach NEEDS to be different. The current security or payment checklists are bureaucratic, CYA nonsense which discourage thinking and encourage bureaucracy and CYA specifically in place of actual security. The only thinking they encourage is creative writing to twist reality into the proper buzzwords.
There may be a way to specify practices and security but we sure have not discovered it yet. So, a research question rather than already a standardization question? I will point out also that there WERE directions that did work in the past. For example, Dan Farmer and Wietse Venema's SATAN (and the several descendants since then) was bureaucracy-free: the test showed specific rubber-meets-the-road issues with your system that you could either fix or defend. No bullshit about using a firewall(tm) "because that's best practice".
I also don't say that it's bad to publish books. I will say that it is bad to push "best practice". "Best practice" is precisely bureaucracy and CYA in place of thinking. To the point of site owners defending their lapses in the name of "best practices".
What else currently goes in the right direction? Pen testing. Bug rewards. Code reviews.
0xbadcafebee 14 hours ago
You remind me, there is an industry that has some basic software building codes: the Defense Industry. There are some pretty thorough standards for IT components, processes, etc needed to work with the military (even in the cloud). But it is all self-attested, so it's like asking a building contractor to make sure they inspect themselves. Government keeps asking the tech industry to solve this, but nobody wants to take responsibility. As more and more stuff falls apart (in the public & private sector) the government is gonna get louder and louder about this. It's already started with privacy & competition, but big failures like Crowdstrike make it obvious that the rot goes deeper.
rockemsockem 10 hours ago
100%
rockemsockem 10 hours ago
The failures you're talking about with SCADA and security breeches will not be solved by some licensing where you check a box saying "thou shall not use default passwords", they'll be solved by holding companies responsible for these failures and having good safety/security requirements. A class isn't going to fix any of that. It's a ridiculous notion.
pnathan 1 day ago
But this particular work is really, really, really awful. For reasons that are well documented.
In the most fundamental sense, the IEEE doesn't understand what professional SWEs need, in appropriate portions. It confuses SWE with PM, badly. And it has done so, historically. To the point of wide condemnation.
nradov 1 day ago
It isn't possible to be a competent engineer, beyond the most junior levels, without having a pretty solid grasp of project management. You might not need to be a good project manager but in order to make competent engineering decisions you have to understand how your tasks fit into the whole.
pnathan 20 hours ago
That is widely understood as the senior+ swe mantra.
The SWEBOK, on the contrary, asserts "it does not depend" and that in a sense is the core problem.
For a detailed takedown, the ACM's is the most famous, there are others that v3 sparked. I'm sure v4 is sparking it's own detailed analysis ... I'm bowing out to go do my day job now. :)
mixmastamyk 1 day ago
osigurdson 1 day ago
abtinf 1 day ago
The day computing becomes subject to professional licensure is the day the field of computing will fall into hopeless stagnation, just like every other such field.
lotsoweiners 1 day ago
rockemsockem 1 day ago
lantry 1 day ago
rockemsockem 1 day ago
That's super broad and I think there are complex reasons why each of these has failed, but it's pretty clear that stagnation hasn't helped and has probably actively caused harm by letting incompetence become too common in these areas.
patmorgan23 1 day ago
The US has lots of infrastructure that needs repair or replacement, but there are very few areas that do not have clean water, or reliable electricity (Sans extreme weather which causes disruptions in every country), and roads and bridges are all safe to drive on (when was the last time you read about a bridge that collapsed from lack of maintenance?)
The US has its issues, but it does actually have a huge amount of superb, world class infrastructure.
shiroiushi 1 day ago
Freezing temperatures do not cause widespread outages in properly-run countries.
>roads and bridges are all safe to drive on (when was the last time you read about a bridge that collapsed from lack of maintenance?)
2022, when the President was in town in Pittsburg and the bridge there collapsed.
Jtsummers 1 day ago
2022.
patmorgan23 1 day ago
rockemsockem 10 hours ago
Strongly agree that fewer changes equals fewer bugs, it just comes down to trading that off with shipping value in your product.
Arainach 1 day ago
Civil and mechanical engineering are not static fields. They come up with new materials, new methods, new ideas. They have tooling to understand the impact of a proposed change and standard ways to test and validate things. It is much easier to predict how long it will take to both design and build things. These are all good things.
We would all benefit from fewer cryptoAI startups and frameworks of the week and more robust toolchains tested and evolved over decades.
rockemsockem 1 day ago
Tell me about all the on time and under budget civil/mechanical engineering projects that are happening.
Do you think that just because they have physics to lean on that they can just like press solve and have accurate estimates spit out?
Edit: I totally agree that more long-lived battle tested software toolchains and libraries would be great though
mckn1ght 1 day ago
rockemsockem 1 day ago
You do not need a credential to work on EV charging infrastructure, rockets, crew capsules to ferry astronauts to the ISS, or many, many other things.
That's how you know, because those fields are not less safe. It's an easy comparison.
mckn1ght 17 hours ago
Could you expand on that? Are you saying that you don’t need a licensed electrician to connect a new EV charging terminal at installation time?
rockemsockem 10 hours ago
I am talking about engineers who design the EV charging terminal.
webmaven 17 hours ago
Arainach 1 day ago
eacapeisfutuile 1 day ago
abtinf 21 hours ago
pnathan 2 days ago
Cook Ding was cutting up an ox for Lord Wenhui. As every touch of his hand, every heave of his shoulder, every move of his feet, every thrust of his knee — zip! zoop! He slithered the knife along with a zing, and all was in perfect rhythm, as though he were performing the dance of the Mulberry Grove or keeping time to the Jingshou music.
“Ah, this is marvelous!” said Lord Wenhui. “Imagine skill reaching such heights!”
Cook Ding laid down his knife and replied, “What I care about is the Way, which goes beyond skill. When I first began cutting up oxen, all I could see was the ox itself. After three years I no longer saw the whole ox. And now — now I go at it by spirit and don’t look with my eyes. Perception and understanding have come to a stop and spirit moves where it wants. I go along with the natural makeup, strike in the big hollows, guide the knife through the big openings, and following things as they are. So I never touch the smallest ligament or tendon, much less a main joint.
“A good cook changes his knife once a year — because he cuts. A mediocre cook changes his knife once a month — because he hacks. I’ve had this knife of mine for nineteen years and I’ve cut up thousands of oxen with it, and yet the blade is as good as though it had just come from the grindstone. There are spaces between the joints, and the blade of the knife has really no thickness. If you insert what has no thickness into such spaces, then there’s plenty of room — more than enough for the blade to play about it. That’s why after nineteen years the blade of my knife is still as good as when it first came from the grindstone.
“However, whenever I come to a complicated place, I size up the difficulties, tell myself to watch out and be careful, keep my eyes on what I’m doing, work very slowly, and move the knife with the greatest subtlety, until — flop! the whole thing comes apart like a clod of earth crumbling to the ground. I stand there holding the knife and look all around me, completely satisfied and reluctant to move on, and then I wipe off the knife and put it away.”
“Excellent!” said Lord Wenhui. “I have heard the words of Cook Ding and learned how to care for life!”
mbivert 1 day ago
numbsafari 2 days ago
pnathan 1 day ago
Software engineering is programming professionally, with a dialogue on quality. Everything else is details.
The IEEE has been riding this horse for a very long time, in the face of very serious criticism (see the ACMs comments from a quarter century ago).
The presentation of it is _not even wrong_. It reads like a mid level manager at a very old enterprise firm wrote out what important at their firm, and took no material care for other ways. The SWEBOK has been that way for as long as I can remember ( an aside: my experience of Software Engineering academia has been so deeply negative to the point I wrote the field off in 2013. Decoupled from reality, PM oriented, toy studies- irrelevant. The SWEBOK is an artifact of that world. I should dip back in... Maybe Google & MS Research have done the real work here...)
There's a body of _practice_ that is mildly incidental. Most acronyms are fads. Lots of ephemeral technologies that only exist as painful grimaces. IE- CORBA- SOAP, etc...
Project management and quality management are also essentially contingent. One company does this. One that. Waterfall here. Agile there. Whirlpool the other.
What you're left with as non contingent and timeless is in the area of compilers, algorithms, etc. Which is not SWE at all.
If I were to write a swe body of knowledge, it would be in koan form, more than likely.
q7xvh97o2pDhNrh 1 day ago
Well, there's your mistake right there. You're supposed to be riding an ox.
All this talk of oxen and horses got me curious about the PDF, so I went and took a look. It's really far worse than you've described.
I couldn't stomach it for too long, but here's some highlights:
(1) The first ~65 pages are about "requirements gathering." Page 60 offers up this gem of insight:
Priority = ((Value * (1 - Risk)) / Cost
(2) The next hundreds of pages go through topics in sequence, like "Architecture" and "Design" (who knew they were different?). Naturally, "Security" is slapped on several hundred pages later.I couldn't make it through the whole PDF, in all honesty. But I'm quite certain the soul of software engineering is nowhere to be found in there; they've eliminated it entirely and replaced it with stamp-collecting and checklists.
walterbell 1 day ago
Please do! You can continue with standalone HN comments, which can be upvoted to enlighten human and AI bot alike.
vundercind 1 day ago
beryilma 2 days ago
epolanski 1 day ago
I've seen so little "engineering" in software world, regardless of the company and how many ivy league devs it hires to be fully convinced that a work of encoding software engineering knowledge is worth the effort, and even attempts like this are valuable reads in such a gigantic vacuum, even just to start a discussion and to be able to disagree on definitions and practices.
rockemsockem 1 day ago
epolanski 23 hours ago