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C-Motive's electrostatic motors use printed circuit boards instead of magnets

119 points by Jeff_Brown 3 days ago | 53 comments

Animats 3 days ago

The C-Motive guys have PR all over the web.

Electrolytic capacitors can have far more capacitance than air capacitors. That's the basic concept here.

Here's their patent.[1] Just scroll through the drawings and you'll see how it works.

Here's the key concept: "Numerous aspects of the present disclosure cooperate to increase the breakdown field strength 8406, and / or adjust (e.g. , flatten) the field strength trajectory such as : the permittivity of the dielectric fluid; a selection of fluid constituents to maintain a permittivity profile related to operating temperatures; protection of the dielectric fluid from impurities, presence of water, and / or presence of gases ; providing a surface smoothness of the electrodes 8402, 8404 (or portions thereof), related surfaces, and/ or a housing inner surface ; rinsing / removal of particles and / or impurities (e.g., from manufacturing residue, etc.); provision of a surface treatment on at least a portion of an electrode, and / or on a surface adjacent to the electrode, including varying surface treatments for different electrodes; provision of a coating on at least a portion of an electrode and / or on a surface adjacent to the electrode, including varying the coating for different electrodes; provision of a surface treatment and / or coating on a component at least selectively contacting the dielectric fluid (e.g., a housing inner surface, a packed bed, a side chamber, flow path, and / or eddy region ); protection of composition integrity of the dielectric fluid (e.g., managing materials of bearings, seals , plates , etc. to avoid material breakdown and / or introduction of degradation constituents that negatively affect the performance of the dielectric fluid ); introduction of a field disrupting additive into the dielectric fluid ( e.g., a coated metal oxide, a nano-particle, and /or a conductive particle having a conductor that isolate the conductive particle from physical contact with the dielectric fluid ); introduction of an ion scavenging additive into the dielectric fluid ( e.g., BHT, antioxidants, etc. ); management of gap distance (e.g., using bearings, magnetic separation, a separation assembly, etc.); and / or selected field weakening at certain operating conditions. The utilization of various field management aspects of the present disclosure allows for an increased average field strength in the gap, while maintaining a peak field strength below a breakdown threshold 8406, thereby increasing capacitive energy storage and consequent performance of the ESM 1002."

This thing is sort of like a high voltage electrolytic capacitor with moving parts. They go to a lot of trouble to deal with most of the problems that happen inside capacitors, plus the special problems from moving parts. They had to go all the way to a pumped fluid system with filters, to keep the dielectric fluid cool and clean. Many electric car motors have liquid cooling, so it's no worse than that. It does mean this is probably a technology for larger motors, because the motor requires some accessory systems.

It's not clear that this is a win over magnetic motors, but it's reasonable engineering.

[1] https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/cf/eb/f0/6d48f07...

nine_k 2 days ago

No electric current in stopped and locked positions + no gearbox needed looks like an ideal combo for actuators.

Interestingly, they never mention anything about the need of a pump for the fluid, and claim that their motors are "naturally" sealed.

Animats 2 days ago

They mention a pump in the patent. "The pump 504 is configured to circulate dielectric fluid through the motor 506." See Fig. 6.

01100011 3 days ago

I've long wondered if there's a possible application for something like this using 3d printing and electrets. Basically you can freeze an electric field inside of an insulator if you apply it as the material solidifies. I think you should be able to embed electrets inside of 3d prints simply by generating a strong electric field at the print head or slightly behind it. You can also vary the field and embed a 3d electret that can act as, say, a sensor or a hidden ID in the print.

Geee 2 days ago

Sounds interesting! Maybe you should try to make this.

calmbonsai 2 days ago

Huh? No you can't due to leakage inductance.

Are you simply making a joke about permanent magnets?

01100011 1 day ago

How does leakage inductance relate to electrets?

giantg2 3 days ago

I wish they had some examples of what RPM, torque, weight, and size specs were for a few possible applications. They seem to emphasize low RPM, but is that 200 RPM or 2000RPM? With other electric motors being capable of 10k-20k RPM, the "low" RPM mention is very vague.

If it's capable of up to about 3000 RPM, and it doesn't weigh too much it could be interesting as an ultralight aircraft power plant.

marcosdumay 3 days ago

It's an electrostatic motor, so expect peak performance at close to 0 RPM. It probably won't work well at 1k RPM, but whether "too high frequency" for it is closer to 10 RPM or 100 RPM isn't clear.

There's a video with some waves in unlabeled axis. I didn't watch it.

Anyway, it's almost certainly not aimed at aircraft propulsion or power generation. You may want something like it for robotics, but last time a paper from them circulated around here, they seemed to be focusing on instrument actuators and chip fabrication.

mppm 3 days ago

Their applications pages mentions wind turbines and automotive applications and promises increased efficiency vs conventional motors. That would require maintaining 90%+ efficiency at well over 1k RPM. But no specs anywhere, so hard to tell whether this is real.

marcosdumay 3 days ago

TBH, I didn't think about low rotational speed wind turbines. Yeah, it may be a big thing for those.

"Electric drivetrains" can mean anything from an excavator moving at 5km/h with 3m large wheels in a frequency of less then 0.2Hz up to extreme race RC vehicles, at 100km/h with 5cm wheels at ~100Hz. A car wheels go barely over 1k RPM, but I don't really expect them to do anything useful for those.

Szpadel 2 days ago

automotive application can mean as well use as windshield or wipers motors

giantg2 3 days ago

I don't think it was really for automotive applications. It said something like "low speed vehicles". Made me think of something like golf carts or maybe ATVs. Of course without a gearbox, the biggest factor would be what wheel diameters are used since that would be the main ratio with revs per mile.

sangnoir 2 days ago

1k RPM for wind turbines? Is that the usual gearing ratio? Is there any reason to maintain that gearing for a different rupe of motor? From my observation of wind farms, the blades spin well under 1 Hz (<60 RPM)

left-struck 2 days ago

3000 rpm would also be good for normal aircraft, and incidentally, centrifugal pumps, assuming the torque is good enough

humanpotato 2 days ago

Another page on the site gives 500 RPM on the high end.

https://www.c-motive.com/about/faqs/

nomel 2 days ago

The docs say 90% efficient from 0 to 500 RPM. I wonder if that's driven by marketing wanting to print a high efficiency number, or something else.

I suspect the gap between the plates needs to be kept small to keep forces high (force is something similar to 0.5QV/d), giving high viscous losses that would increase with RPM (proportional?). I suspect that's what eventually limits the speed.

mNovak 3 days ago

Some more technical content (literature review, but includes the university work this spun out of) if the sales page isn't doing it for you:

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?tp=&arnumber=919...