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Ribbonfarm Is Retiring

177 points by Arubis 4 days ago | 126 comments

blfr 4 days ago

It seems to me that the blogosphere was not a ZIRP but rather a young Internet phenomenon. Which could exists, like usenet before it, when mere access to it was a filtering mechanism.

Once you have seven billion people with virtually no access control, you can't have a public blogosphere, and groups retreat to the cozyweb.

Either way, I enjoyed it while it lasted. Thanks for the Office series!

https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-...

spaceman_2020 4 days ago

The public blogosphere died because of Google, simple as. Once search stopped prioritizing blogs over bloated, SEO-optimized slop, traffic to blogs died and discoverability was limited to you spamming your posts everywhere.

lenderton 4 days ago

Google bought Blogger in 2003; that was the main blogging service for a long time in the US, at least. Google not being able to optimize search results for their own hosted content implies...a lack of overall content available. It used to be a lot better in the earlier days, for ROMs and especially album downloads blogs would pop up all the time in the results. It's just that there are a lot more people online now, and more accompanying spam, and also the fact that Google delists any sort of "download" type site by default - which used to be a substantial subcategory of blogs.

People forget how "tightened up" the web is nowadays, or many just aren't old enough to remember. It wasn't 10 years ago that Fox News would archive full, uncensored ISIS videos on their website - which is kind of insane, when you think about it.

Average age of first phone ownership is really young these days, which is arguably the #1 factor in everything online becoming a closed system for sheep.

On the other hand, no parents want their 11-year-old wandering into videos of hostages being burned alive. Or getting solicited for photos etc. So the internet is kind of dying for the sake of real life.

You can always search old blogspots. https://www.searchblogspot.com

throwaway14356 4 days ago

You forgot technorati! They lost the plausible deniability there.

PaulHoule 3 days ago

Back when the rat was in effect, the rat would always index the splogs I made but I could never get it to index my non-spam blogs.

bartread 4 days ago

> Once you have seven billion people with virtually no access control, you can't have a public blogosphere, and groups retreat to the cozyweb.

Why can’t you? There’s a logical leap in this statement I don’t follow.

rogers12 4 days ago

Those seven billion people aren't very good for the most part, and include a critical mass of spectacularly awful people. It turns out that public access forums calibrated for the small and self-selected community of mostly high quality internet pioneers aren't prepared to deal with 1000000x expansion of reachable audience. The Eternal September effect has been getting stronger ever since it's first been observed.

rtpg 4 days ago

There's a gap between public fora and the blogosphere though.

Generally speaking there are plenty of blogs that get linked in places like here. Blogs just don't have comment sections hosted on their own as much anymore.

Having discussions happen in separate places is also interesting, because the HN convo and some subreddit convo will be different, for example.

There's a lot more mainstraeam stuff but I think niche communities still exist. Glibly, we're not a part of most of them on account of having gotten older. Or we are a part of some, but there's plenty we're not seeing.

enugu 4 days ago

It's not just that the social media is filled with low on substance posts with excess anger and snark, but this incentivizes everyone to be more forceful - as otherwise the louder voices can dominate the discussion. So, it's not just a quality of people issue but also an emergent dynamic which encourages tribalism instead of substantive posts. The same people can make reasonable posts in other contexts

This need not be a unsolvable problem, and that one has to retreat places like HN relying on a single moderator(good, but doesn't scale).

One can also rely on timelines/feeds being based on Distributed moderation - A user selects moderators or custom-algorithms who they find valuable. The moderation can be along different dimensions like accuracy, interest, or aligned with some political view.

There could a moderator whose style is to purely check the soundness of the reasoning without taking any position on the issue itself. This can lead to improved standards of discussion.

A key issue is how to reduce the energy required to moderate - typically a moderator evaluates the quality and rely on networks of other moderators each handling smaller domains.

Current discourse encourages users to sort into strongly polarized groups, whereas more nuanced feeds in social media can lead to coalitions which don't neatly align with the standard fault lines. Platforms like Polis actively encourage common points of agreement across different groups.

throwaway14356 4 days ago

I had a hilarious time deleting comments from people who don't believe the topic is real. Specifically hard to believe stuff made the experience funny. People got really mad in private messages. As if it is a god given right to complain about others talking about something so elaborately that the conversation dies.

All scaling issues solved.

If you want to talk about the garden gnome liberation front you must believe they need to be rescued.

bartread 3 days ago

Yeah, but this sounds more like social media than the blogosphere.

Blogs were always effort to set up and maintain, even if you were just going with one of the hosted platforms rather than self-hosting.

And comment spam was certainly an issue but, firstly, systems for dealing with that became pretty good. And then, outside of major news sites - I'm thinking particularly here of BBC's HYS, but the same applies to other news sites - and other sites with very broad interest bases, you didn't tend to get loads of nasty or toxic comments on blogs. Plus, the moderation tools were - as previously mentioned - pretty decent. A lot of the bigger news websites did close comments, but I'm not so aware of this being an issue with blogs which were often more focussed around a particular community or interest anyway... just publicly available.

I don't think the quantity of people online in itself had anything to do with the "death" of the blogosphere. It's just that most of those people don't read or write blogs. And it's become harder to find blogs and other long tail content because search results are now so heavily skewed towards paid results and commercial entities who invest huge amounts in SEO.

FWIW I also think you're probably going a bit far with the moral pronouncements on those 7 billion people: neither you nor I have any real idea what the vast majority of them are actually like as human beings. Moreover, I'd suggest that writing off most people as "[not] very good" or branding a critical mass of them as "spectacularly awful" - and especially when you're speaking from a position of ignorance - is exactly the kind of rhetoric that's landed us with this grim tribal culture that permeates large areas of online - and offline - life.

njtransit 4 days ago

There is a NYT op ed titled “The Tyranny of Convenience” that covers the phenomena well.

45y564hn54 4 days ago

[flagged]

xterminator 4 days ago

Are bloggers required to meet a quota?

Arubis 4 days ago

There may be examples of this, but picking on Venkat Rao for not being sufficiently prolific is a laughable argument.

seltzered_ 4 days ago

For those missing context:

> "This blog was sponsored by ZIRP. The future historians who dive into these archives for archaeological research will likely be economic rather than cultural historians, trying to reconstruct the play-by-play impact of ZIRP. Many of the big hits of this blog, such as The Premium Mediocre Life of Maya Millennial, and The Locust Economy (a forgotten hit from 2013) had ZIRPy subtexts."

I think the author might he referring to their own blog (ribbonfarm) as a ZIRP phenomenon, not the whole blogosphere.

philshem 3 days ago

> ZIRP stands for “Zero Interest Rate Phenomenon,” …

https://www.ycombinator.com/library/LC-what-is-zirp-and-how-...

cheschire 4 days ago

Having access to wikipedia on a phone everywhere you go is what killed the bar conversation. No longer did you have to compare notes and argue over beers to remember trivia.

And in that same way, no longer do people have to ramble on into the aether in blog form to work through some shit. Now they can do that with ChatGPT and actually get responses to their thoughts in real time. And most of the time it's agreeable in tone.

Tech continues to change the world.

Maybe that isn't what is contributing to this particular blog dying, but I bet it's contributing to the larger community of blogs dying, which has probably created some inertia.

lenderton 4 days ago

From what I can tell, highschooler and younger, there's almost a complete abandonment of mainstream social media in favor of self-curated chats like Discord, and it revolves heavily around gaming. A sort of hearkening to the AIM days, which is naturally what you'd expect from individuals who socialize in friendgroups that are developed beyond "work drinking buddies", lol.

But in general, without being too doom-and-gloom about it, and perhaps this is because of the election going on, it does feel like there is a greater trend going on of internet users stepping away from social media.

There's no easy way to divert this weariness back to specialized forums a la the 00's or 90's, though, which is probably where everything should be for the internet to remain useful. This is exacerbated by the fact that 85% or so of internet traffic is phones, resulting in discussions being comprised of back-and-forth thumbtap-quality posts that nobody (including the senders) really seems to care about. It's also exacerbated by the fact that search engines cannot seem to index traditional message boards or wordpresses etc. properly; there are too many of them nowadays to navigate (most being identical templates like vbulletin).

mannymanman 4 days ago

Do you have any sources to read/learn more about this phenomenon? Would be great to understand why

lenderton 4 days ago

https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/fact-sheet/teens-and-so...

https://influencermarketinghub.com/discord-stats/

Average age is 16 on Discord, average time spent per day is less than 10 minutes, so it's being used as a messaging service (but connected to a greater gaming-type ecosystem). 90% of servers are less than 15 members. 30% of teens use it, which is significantly higher than the rest of the population.

I don't really have anything concrete to point to for my general feeling about American society slowly moving into a post-social media phase. Tiktok falling into relative unuse with most Americans except Hispanics is probably a main point of data. There hasn't been anything emerging to replace it besides (according to studies) the more cordial YouTube, which you cannot really say is a social media site. It is the most widely used of all of them, though, something like 94% penetration.

satisfice 4 days ago

On the other hand, the smartphone has enhanced the culture of watching TV and movies at home. It is acceptable etiquette in my house for any viewer to pause the show and read out the results of a web search about the writer, director, plot, history, concepts, etc. related to the flick at hand.

kelnos 4 days ago

Oof, you consider that an enhancement? If anyone paused something we were watching to read something off a web page, I'd lose my patience real fast.

My partner is often on her phone intermittently while we're watching something together, and even that bothers me. It seems quite sad to me that people can't put their phones down for even a half hour to watch an episode of a sitcom.

auggierose 4 days ago

Lol. The argument used to be that it is quite sad that people waste half an hour of their lives watching a sitcom.

gcanyon 3 days ago

Are you sure that's acceptable? I do that all the time, but I think the right word for how my wife feels about it is "tolerable," not "acceptable" :-)

fanf2 3 days ago

> No longer did you have to compare notes and argue over beers to remember trivia.

The Guinness Book of Records was started because of a pub argument whose participants lacked a good reference to settle the dispute.

dcx 4 days ago

If the claim that the blogosphere is dying is true, does that imply the public intellectual commons is dying too? I suspect that while the cosyweb is more pleasant for most, this retreat might hinder vital testing and cross-pollination of ideas, and make it much harder for people to polarize into being intellectually active. For example, I've never been an active participant on ribbonfarm, but Rao's writing has made me a little smarter and inclined towards certain vectors of thought. And you can see ripples of his work in later writing by others.

What a shame it would be for this culture to be lost; while there's a lot of dross in the blogosphere, I don't know if the brightest jewels will still be possible in a future system of local, private, transient clusters of thought.

fallingknife 4 days ago

I would say it's dead. Killed by a change in cultural attitude to one that sees an opposing idea as a declaration of war. Retreat into private walled gardens seems like the only option.

belzebalex 4 days ago

This is quite sad, I've been very inspired by the writings of Artem Litvinovich [1] (although he stopped publishing 8 years ago). I inspired a lot of my research on what he did.

https://www.ribbonfarm.com/author/artem/